Orna Tsultem: The Art of Resistance
Mongol Zurag and the Preservation of Cultural Memory
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When a culture faces profound change, what endures? What emerges when traditions are interrupted, when familiar ways of expression are replaced by new ideologies?
In Mongolia of the 1930s, as Buddhist monasteries were dismantled and ancient practices were set aside, artists navigated a complex reality: adapt to the official aesthetic of Socialist Realism or find alternative paths forward. From this period of cultural transformation, something meaningful emerged – not just adaptation, but a thoughtful response that honored the past while engaging with a changing present.
Today, our search brings us into a conversation about art as a carrier of identity, about creativity as a form of memory, about how visual expression can preserve what might otherwise be forgotten. We'll explore how art becomes a space where different values and visions can coexist, sometimes in tension, sometimes in harmony.
We're joined by a woman whose life connects directly to this history, whose father was an influential artist during Mongolia's socialist period, and who has herself become a bridge between worlds. From Berkeley to Venice, from Shanghai to Indianapolis, she has brought important stories to light, addressing the absence of Mongolian art in Western institutions.
Her work shows us how creative responses to yesterday's challenges speak to our contemporary global questions – environmental sustainability, cultural recognition, and the effects of economic systems on creative expression. It invites us to see how art moves beyond borders and time, offering fresh perspectives on our connections with each other and with the world we share.
This is a conversation about seeing what has often been overlooked, about valuing what continues despite significant change, and about how bringing art to new audiences can transform our understanding.
Guest
Orna Tsultem is an art historian specializing in Mongolian and Buddhist art history. She serves as Associate Professor of Asian Art History at the California College of the Arts and has curated exhibitions for institutions including the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco and the Mongolian National Modern Art Gallery. As the daughter of a prominent Mongolian artist active during the socialist period, she brings both scholarly expertise and personal connection to her work on cultural preservation through art. Her research addresses the absence of Mongolian art in Western institutions while exploring how artists maintain cultural identity during periods of political transformation.
Resources Mentioned:
Art Mongolia Website
https://www.artmongolia.org/
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Transcript
00:00:08:03 - 00:00:46:03
John
When a culture faces profound change, what endures? What emerges when traditions are interrupted, when familiar ways of expression are replaced by new ideologies? In Mongolia of the 1930s, as Buddhist monasteries were dismantled and ancient practices set aside, artists navigated a complex reality, adapt to the official esthetic of socialism, or find alternative paths forward. From this period of cultural transformation, something meaningful emerged, not just adaptation, but a thoughtful response that honored the past while engaging with the changing present.
00:00:46:05 - 00:01:20:00
John
Today, our search brings us into a conversation about art as a carrier of identity, about creativity as a form of memory, and about how visual expression can preserve what might otherwise be forgotten. We'll explore how art becomes a space where different values and visions can coexist, sometimes in tension and sometimes in harmony. We're joined by a woman whose life connects directly to this history, whose father was an influential artist during Mongolia's socialist period, and who has herself become a bridge between worlds.
00:01:20:02 - 00:01:53:07
John
From Berkeley to Venice, from Shanghai to Indianapolis. She has brought important stories to light, addressing the absence of Mongolian art and Western institutions. Her work shows us how creative responses to yesterday's challenges speak to our contemporary global questions. Environmental sustainability, cultural recognition and the effects of economic systems on creative expression. It invites us to see how art moves beyond borders in time, offering fresh perspectives on our connections with each other and with the world we share.
00:01:53:09 - 00:02:12:06
John
This is a conversation about seeing what has often been overlooked, about valuing what continues despite significant change, and about how bringing art to new audiences can transform our understanding.
00:02:12:06 - 00:02:29:05
John
Doctor Sultan, I am so honored to have you on the show today. I've been looking forward to this for the past couple of months, knowing that I would have the opportunity to talk to you about the work that you do, both in art history but also in contemporary curatorial practices.
00:02:29:05 - 00:02:45:08
John
In my research, I saw that you grew up in a family of artists. Your father was an artist. Your your your your siblings are all practicing artists. You know, I'm curious, how far back does that go in your family? Was it your father and his practice that kind of grew, that artistic?
00:02:45:10 - 00:02:53:13
John
Sensibility for your family, or was there, people before that in your lineage where that kind of spoke to your father as well?
00:02:53:15 - 00:03:22:13
Orna
Well, thank you very much, John, for bringing me to this program. It's my honor to. And I'm, such a pleasure to be here and having this opportunity to talk to you. So my family history about art actually goes to my ancestors in 14th century, where we, we have a little bit of information and not too much that one of our, essence ancestors was a Smith man.
00:03:22:15 - 00:03:53:19
Orna
Smith person, Magic Smith. Precisely. And, and after that, we have a gap of knowledge. We don't know exactly what our, you know, our lineage, people who scraping. And I know that my grandparents, there were not, I don't know much about their artistic, activities. And my father, was very, as a young man, he began on music.
00:03:53:19 - 00:04:35:09
Orna
Actually, he was planning some music instruments and dancing and stuff like that. And it was the time when the first theater was born, in 1930s, and he was a young lad in his late teens and performing, dancing and singing in that theater. And then, after that, he was called, to help with some printing. And what he told us is that that painting was happening for a one of the early movies about, a historical period.
00:04:35:11 - 00:05:06:15
Orna
And it was shot together with as a joint production with Soviet, filmmakers. And but it was a Mongolian movement, Mongolian production happening taking place in Mongolia about Mongolian historical period. The and Mongolian actors and so he as a young man it was called to paint some design sketches from drawings or like accessories like swords or armor or hats or whatever.
00:05:06:17 - 00:05:29:23
Orna
Yeah. Three and there weren't too many people who could do something around art. And so it was called to do that. And Sam Crockett sounds more interesting now, drawing rather than music playing. And that's how he's curious shape. As we as we know from the how interesting.
00:05:30:01 - 00:05:38:10
John
Was there a moment in in your own childhood, you know, similar to your father? Were you, you knew that you were going to be drawn to the art world in whatever capacity?
00:05:38:15 - 00:06:06:03
Orna
You know, it's a very interesting question. It's sound so a simple question, but it's such a deep stare because. Okay, I feel like it was like my karma, you know, my destiny needed and some sort because I was never I grew up in very much an artist family, surrounded by brushes and drawings and art journals, you know, and my, my, my, I had two older brothers and older sister, all artists.
00:06:06:03 - 00:06:35:13
Orna
And my father was an artist. My mom was not an artist. She was a teacher. And so I grew up like listening in and talking about art all the time, or exhibitions and hearing loss and, seeing, you know, producing artists, stuff like that. But I never was particularly drawn myself to make art. However, when I was in school and elementary and then, you know, middle and high school, I was very within languages and writing.
00:06:35:13 - 00:07:07:04
Orna
I was drawn to humanities. So literature and languages and that somehow, you know, navigated me towards art history and to hungry to good at this, when I was 18, eight years old. And so, and at the time it was a socialist, I, like 83. And so we all were, you know, fully paid, with college to study in the college.
00:07:07:07 - 00:07:31:07
Orna
So that was like system for everyone at the time. And we would be given the opportunity to study that spool based of our interest. So and somehow my year when I was, taking exams to know the college, somehow that art history program was available to me. And I remember choosing it and just knowing that because it involved writing.
00:07:31:09 - 00:07:48:18
Orna
So I was gifted writing. I was interested right in it. And I remember there was also possibility to become a reporter and a journalist. So there was. But between the two, I chose rather art history. Yeah. Thinking about my interest in writing and humanities and.
00:07:48:20 - 00:08:12:16
John
Into my understanding, art history, is or was at least a primarily Western sort of idea. I'm curious, what sort of drew you back? Well, was there always this thought that you would be studying, art history of Mongolia, or was it originally, you know, Western Italian Renaissance art, or was there something else before that?
00:08:12:18 - 00:08:47:10
Orna
So at the time when I was a college, so the whole country was under Soviet influence, dependent on Soviet Union as economically and larger understanding of art in institutions of art, like exhibitions and museums all came from, Soviet Union. And many or artists, were trained in Soviet Union. Moscow. My father was trained in Moscow or, fewer artists were trained in Western England.
00:08:47:12 - 00:09:13:19
Orna
Thing. So art history is one of those disciplines. As you rightly pointed out, it's a Western discipline. And so that became familiar in, in Mongolian, art scene through of it in and there was a couple of art historians who were trained in Moscow in Art Academy. But, I saw when I was studying in Budapest, it was Western discipline.
00:09:13:19 - 00:09:52:02
Orna
So we were studying medieval and Renaissance catacombs. Yeah. You know, all, Christian art. And I remember myself because. Because I've never been Soviet in the Soviet period, in these socialist times. And there was no any possibility for any of us to learn about religion, any of the region. Right? Anything included. So I remember myself being in a classroom in Budapest in art history, looking at Christian biblical scenes, right from for me to library visitors and have no idea what they show on their history.
00:09:52:04 - 00:10:18:18
Orna
But I remember the kind of puzzlement the right and, I was I was the only Mongolian there. All my peers were old Hungarians grew up in the in the Christian, you know, so I did, I befriended a, a girl from, Greece who was an international student there. And I remember Eva was her name.
00:10:18:18 - 00:10:26:14
Orna
And Eva would tell me after the class one those names they called scenes. Me.
00:10:26:16 - 00:11:01:05
Orna
And about Bible, you know, about. And I and and that's how I was introduced to Bible and started reading it just to understand art. And I remember how, well, you know, interested I was excited. Wow. It's just such an interesting story. Yeah, yeah. And so there was no question about that in Mongolia. Not at the time. It was all about European and Christian, mostly until I got the 30th year when we started to learn about more and, and contemporary art.
00:11:01:07 - 00:11:25:00
John
What a gift to have someone local like that to kind of, help guide you through those sort of conversations of symbolism and meaning and all that sort of stuff. Yes. You know, I'm I'm curious, you know, Mongolia is a landlocked country and it's situated on a, on a steep or a plateau between these two major political forces in the world, Russia and the People's Republic of China.
00:11:25:01 - 00:11:31:15
John
How did that influence the art making? And, and the art practice in Mongolia?
00:11:31:17 - 00:12:09:00
Orna
It is a an interesting geopolitical, political, positioning of Mongolia sandwiched between the two gigantic nations. But interestingly, Mongolia, Mongolian art and culture is very different from, from any of those neighbors, especially from China. And this is because Mongolia, first of all, weather, climate, it's very continental. It's very dry, it's elevated, above sea level air.
00:12:09:00 - 00:12:42:01
Orna
And it's it's very rigid. It gets very cold. Cold, zero winters, to -20 easily Celsius degrees and stuff like that. But it is also very sunny country. So, I believe this, that our data was showing it's, over 300, about 250 to 300 days in year. Sunny. So, it's it's it's it gets snow, winter, but it's always sunny.
00:12:42:01 - 00:13:19:11
Orna
So these elements, made their habitat of Mongolian nomads right to, leaving with their their sustained economy of cattle breeding. Be very different in terms of culture or art making practices because it necessitated them to be very close to nature, understanding nature and, production, such as, for instance, in China, silk making, right, was not possible in my wallet because just, just because it's called our country to to wear silk.
00:13:19:11 - 00:14:01:04
Orna
Right. And so instead of that leather making became a practice. And so making big coats, developed very early even before rising of the Mongols and in the 1200s and, and boots, for instance, all, all that kind of material culture developed in relationship. What was their climate was right. What was necessary for their people and what kind of, habitat they had and was always based on animals, cattle breeding, nomads and, and and very different from agriculture based economy such.
00:14:01:06 - 00:14:02:19
Orna
So it was China.
00:14:02:21 - 00:14:18:06
John
It's my understanding, Buddhism plays a large role in the cultural contexts in, in history of Mongolia. How does that influence and how does that kind of play into some of the art practices?
00:14:18:08 - 00:15:16:07
Orna
So Buddhism, came tomorrow or later, in to different stages or during, pre mogul. So what we call humongous is during that period of Silk Road and before rising out the Mongols, in the 1200s with Genghis Khan as their leader. Buddhism was also king. To the nomadic people, the whole lived in the territory of Mongolia, through Silk Road and then, during Mongol imperial period in 1300s, through they lions of the Mongol Khans, Kublai Khan, specifically with Tibet being monks, and then later again through reliance political interest of of becoming along with Mongols and Quebec marks.
00:15:16:09 - 00:16:08:00
Orna
So Tibet and Mongolia became very close allies since 1301. Gates. And so the form that Mongols adopted and practice even today is the form of Tibetan Buddhism. But because it's appropriation happened through the Mongol lands, Mongol perspectives call is now in their past decades we call this as Mongolian Buddhism. And Buddhism has a very profound, influence on entire culture, on architecture, building temples, monasteries and every temple and monastery had its on workshop of art making, and developing different, ritual objects and rituals that involve paintings and sculptures.
00:16:08:02 - 00:16:17:11
Orna
And to this day, Buddhism has, most profound influence on a monk, William Earl art and later.
00:16:17:13 - 00:16:24:20
John
What are some of those, rituals? I'm curious. And is there any sort of relationship to land in, in the environment with that?
00:16:24:23 - 00:16:58:07
Orna
Yes. So, with and without Buddhism, Mongolia is a very, very spiritual, it are the nature so similar to some Asian countries. Mongolians always believe that even elements of nature have their own spirits. And this believe in spirits. It's not necessarily connected with Buddhism, but it's also very deep in the weeds. Germanic beliefs, or ancestral beliefs.
00:16:58:09 - 00:17:29:08
Orna
And so mountains, for instance, we believe that they're not spirits. Right? In the mountains or rivers have both spirits. And so, people's, living is living with all these spirits around. Their maker, they, they're invisible to us. But it doesn't mean that they're not exist. And so nomads, developed this different types of the rituals around those spirits and respect towards nature.
00:17:29:10 - 00:17:36:20
Orna
And some of this might remind you, indigenous practices in the United States, like Native Americans.
00:17:36:21 - 00:17:39:06
John
And and I'm just going to mention them.
00:17:39:07 - 00:18:17:19
Orna
Yeah, exactly. And so, aspersions of milk for things is very, very, widespread among Mongols where, first milk, you exposed to, sky, as a connection between, sky and Earth and through your ancestors. Then there are rituals of carriers, of stones on top, different fields to. And so command the later careless of stones to tide is again to respect the particular locale that that particular hill and mountain.
00:18:17:19 - 00:18:51:21
Orna
Because again, we're just some beings surrounded with others and with object knowledge, their presence and, given respect and just simple things like milk or care of stones, so, we but it's all very profound. So can you go to the wallet? You see those, cairns of stones, you know, piled either in small or bit formations on various various mountains, everywhere in the country.
00:18:51:23 - 00:19:14:01
John
I'm, I'm thinking about this idea of nomadism and the relationship with Buddhism and impermanence. And I know that you, did your, your thesis on a particular Buddhist temple, that whenever I was learning about it, it was the first time I'd ever known about a temple that moved. And I was just kind of blown away by that.
00:19:14:01 - 00:19:20:09
John
And I'm curious if you could kind of talk more about that, why that was and how it came up.
00:19:20:11 - 00:19:54:21
Orna
And yeah, that's a very interesting case. Because, not only temple moved, but it grew expanded in its architecture, and it was kind of organic, settlement. And that different temples were added, and, it was surrounded also or accompanied by merchant, communities. And it moved very large distances.
00:19:54:21 - 00:20:34:01
Orna
It more so more than water to solid water or within this central part of, Mongolia over 30 times. And, and we have records of them in texts which it's talking about. Now it's a time to move and there will be, you know, 30 camels needed to move because we need to know, dismantle our, used, and tents and start building because pastures of abstraction anymore, the land needs being, you know, renewed and so it was, different aspects.
00:20:34:04 - 00:21:15:07
Orna
There were there are different reasons why that monastery law, and it's, one of them is looking for, new pastures because the monastery, the monks owned also cattle. They also herders. And so they always needed new parts, new rangelands where, there's animals could, sustain their fresh, habitat. There were other reasons is also, you know, the respect for nature is, is that you don't stay in one place because you're ruining the major this way, and you have to move so that the nature also kind of rejuvenates itself.
00:21:15:09 - 00:21:59:04
Orna
And the third is political reasons. The first one, it started and started as a moving temple because, the main ruler for whom they used was, erected by his parents. He was only five year old. He became known as the incarnation, and an important teacher. So, monk, you know, and a ruler. And so, he was purged by, other, ethnic Mongol communities who didn't believe that he was actually the ruler and didn't believe that it should be leading, the Mongol people, that the central Mongol people.
00:21:59:06 - 00:22:37:05
Orna
And so they purged him. And when he established, he established several monasteries and one monastery, for instance, we know pretty much from the records in 1680s, it was burnt, and he had to flee. Take his, epaulets and, and, completely, you know, hide away from those purging enemies. And it was completely burned. And in the past few years, there were archeological expeditions, unearthing that burnt monastery and finding many, many ways, sculptures that we made in 1680s.
00:22:37:07 - 00:23:05:21
Orna
So the third reason was there was this political one where he couldn't stay in one place because there was there were enemies. And so he had to also constantly stay itinerant. And the monastery stopped moving in mid 1800s because it was just became very large. And, the rulers now, they're reincarnations of that of the first man.
00:23:05:23 - 00:23:32:17
Orna
They were Tibetans. They, they, they lost just so much, of architecture there that it became impossible basically to move. And they, were, very small movements. If there were, just in the area where, wooden the capital city of Mongolia or Lombardy, it's located. So it's a valley or big school. The four mountains.
00:23:32:19 - 00:23:41:13
Orna
So it was just settled there. And late 19th century later became a Mongol capital city.
00:23:41:15 - 00:24:13:22
John
It's so cool to see how necessity kind of creates inventions like that. And, you know, I know that you're the, the, the first curator of Mongolian art, which that's amazing. How has how is the practice in Mongolia changed from traditional practices and artmaking? And, you know, I guess things maybe started picking up more or changing in, once the Soviets kind of left this country alone a little bit.
00:24:14:03 - 00:24:20:04
John
I don't know as much as you do. Obviously some, two examples of those sorts of pieces of art.
00:24:20:06 - 00:25:01:02
Orna
The, the. Yeah. So the past century, during the socialist period, when, young artists were, Mongolian artists were trained by Soviet teachers in Moscow, Leningrad, currently Saint Petersburg and other cities and Eastern Europe. There was mostly our story was socialist realism and religions were introduced to Mongolia, such as landscape, for instance, because Mongolia was prior to socialism, I think the Soviet imposed it was but basically very Buddhist country and art was mostly Buddhist.
00:25:01:04 - 00:25:46:09
Orna
And, so this past century, developed, modern art through such mediums as watercolor and oil on canvas and sculpture, and, and, stuff like that. Now, the idea of creating is, is really a Western concept as well, or, curatorial practice, was not now on in in the past century because exhibitions were developed by the artists themselves and lower or they, the socialist bloc, they were countries had so-called union of all artists.
00:25:46:10 - 00:26:32:05
Orna
Right? All artist associations developed where again, their funding was, was able to book for their artists. And this organization was very, funded from the government and from their oil activities. And they were helping with gallery spaces, with studio spaces, and even, payments, even salary. The artists or artists were salaried people in the passenger and curatorial practice became introduced to Mongolia when Mongolia, as you mentioned, sort of, became a democratic nation in 1992.
00:26:32:07 - 00:27:13:04
Orna
And from that, all the Western conceptual, ideas of art, such as installations or performance and video art, all of that became sort of slowly, coming later with, opening of Mongolia to the world. It's not being isolated as a socialist country. And with that curatorial practice, and, I am credited with it, which I thought was curatorial practice, because as, as early as 1993, I remember now, I was a young graduate of art school, an art historian, graduate from art school.
00:27:13:04 - 00:27:42:17
Orna
And, I was in sort of called, to do some organize exhibitions at different embassies. That's how it started. So there was an embassy and there was an American embassy and, Embassy of United States that it declined was very public space. At the time, there were no sort of okay, fortunately, there was no terrorist activities around the world that are threatening, embassies.
00:27:42:19 - 00:28:09:14
Orna
And so, an embassy, United States was most public space and there was no offenses around. And there was a huge library. That's how I used to go to library. I was already required to speak English at the time, befriending public officers. The embassy staff was whose mission was to create the connection, cultural relations with the country, with their where they were.
00:28:09:16 - 00:28:37:09
Orna
And I was frequenting, Embassy of United States, for instance, in the 90s. And they had public office there, had a space like our little conference room where they wanted to exhibitions. And so, of course, I was called and I started to submission there. And same with the German embassy that had a very beautiful space where they had regular exhibitions and they just didn't want to do them, you know, all by themselves.
00:28:37:09 - 00:29:22:08
Orna
They wanted someone from the country to do that. And I became sort of, curator introducing that, that practice. And that's how I started. And so and then it followed in 1997, when I was in Japan, I had a very large show, over, hundreds, over a dozen of artists because I received the funding from a company and they wanted to have it was a beautiful building, that company, designed by, Michael Graves and, that, of course, modernist with beautiful, you know, colors, very different colors, as you know, my brothers likes big buildings.
00:29:22:10 - 00:29:42:09
Orna
And they had a community doing different activities there. And so since I was there, I, I applied for it. I won the award and I did exhibition on Mongolian art, and that became my first, territorial exhibition outside of my white lady.
00:29:42:11 - 00:30:02:09
John
What led up to, the exhibition with, the the Zurich style of paintings? I know that your father was a a painter and a major, proponent of that style, but I'm curious, how did that kind of play into critiquing, modern society?
00:30:02:11 - 00:30:20:09
Orna
So, I think this would be a good time for me to if you think it's possible to share my screen and show you, let's do, all hopefully you can see some images there.
00:30:20:11 - 00:30:21:18
John
I believe so.
00:30:21:20 - 00:30:55:04
Orna
Okay. Oh, yeah. Here's for instance, one painting, my wife by my father. And, it's called, called, a boy. Peel is another word, and it's basically showing a, a revolutionary man, blow, blowing a conch. But, the way the style that it's takes on, is very different from his families.
00:30:55:04 - 00:31:28:19
Orna
And even though the subject matter children go to college and it's a red, you know, soldier, but the elements, the flames and the flat course there, it's showing. It's very decorative and it's taking actually old boring from what is art. And so, this long, the rock was developed as a new style by my father and his colleagues, different artists who were not very conservative, violent, the dominating, socialist realism.
00:31:28:21 - 00:32:02:23
Orna
They wanted heritage. They wanted the tradition. Well, traditions, you know, still kind of, being, visible and, because the Buddhist art and Buddhism was completely disparate and, not possible. They borrowing their motifs, in a subtle way, but definitely as a visual and the resistance towards, or against socialist realism. So the idea of his style was being completely different visually from socialist specialism.
00:32:03:01 - 00:32:18:02
Orna
And so even the medium of making these, they meant to be different and close to Buddhist art and different from oil and canvas even. That was sort of part of this idea.
00:32:18:04 - 00:32:21:12
John
Such an arresting image.
00:32:21:14 - 00:32:27:10
Orna
So when, this became such as, kind of success, you still see my screen?
00:32:27:12 - 00:32:27:19
John
Yeah.
00:32:27:19 - 00:32:57:10
Orna
Yeah, yeah. And if I move it to let's see or move it to your next, image, it's if it's possible, that became sort of very successful, or, sort of new style and all kinds of rock. And it was intentionally named logo generic because again, kind of thinking about tradition. It's a kind of looking inside.
00:32:57:12 - 00:33:22:04
Orna
Of, you know, Mongol traditions and or staying away from staying away from socialist realism and thinking what Mongol and traditional ad would look like. And so the name was also kind of, showing that mobile painting. So that means painting Mongol painting. And, this was really done by, artists in, in the past century.
00:33:22:04 - 00:33:33:13
Orna
And then it continues, to this day continues very successfully to this day. And it's, with contemporary artists.
00:33:33:15 - 00:33:42:06
John
In the course plays a significant role in Mongolian culture. So I'm assuming that that is representative of Mongolia.
00:33:42:07 - 00:34:06:13
Orna
You know, horse is very, liked subject matter. There are many artists like horses, just big dogs. Again, even though our, as you mentioned in the beginning of the program, so much, our population lives in, in the city, in the capital city, they still have many family members, in the countryside. So I would say half of the country still wants their own nomads.
00:34:06:15 - 00:34:31:17
Orna
So, it's a city life connected with the countryside life, very much through personal, you know, family members or, you know, you coming from, countryside and now deciding to move in to see or something like that. And so there's a constant connection with that aside, if there's no that complete, sort of, disconnect. But it's not knowledge.
00:34:31:22 - 00:34:59:16
Orna
No, it's always connection. And so even though, many artists who live in the Tower City, they still, like horses, as the image as their subject matter because, a, horse has culturally so much importance for the nomads, for their itineraries, for their movement and migration and so on. I don't know if you see this.
00:34:59:16 - 00:35:04:20
Orna
Another painting my grandfather called Assemble a Cloud on your screen.
00:35:04:22 - 00:35:25:19
John
Image whenever I do my research was the one that really struck me. I took a few minutes just to stare at it. If you can't see it at the moment, for listeners, there's this huge expanse of clouds and then this little tiny strip of land, but at the very bottom with a couple of words, just to kind of show the scale of humanity in relationship to the universe.
00:35:25:19 - 00:35:32:22
John
And, even right now. And it's really interesting to me, and it's just one most beautiful images I've ever seen in.
00:35:33:02 - 00:35:59:01
Orna
Yeah. So, as I mentioned, very sunny country and so clouds and sky, it's often blue, very often very, very low. And and against that blue color, the colors, when they take the different shapes and, and colors. Right. That is very constant what we grew up seeing. And this is what this, this art is representing here.
00:35:59:01 - 00:36:44:07
Orna
It was the ornamental clouds occupying been prior composition and, showing the different nuances, use of water and, and blue and gray and white and, and so this is there is a very large, set of, as he calls it, assembly of clouds. Great. But very also represented to, Mongolian landscape and Mongolian understanding of, as I mentioned, spirituality towards a landscape, understanding how how we living with all these invisible entities and they're just small part of it and they have to be spectacles.
00:36:44:07 - 00:37:14:23
Orna
That and clouds is another very frequent, sort of, subject matter in many artists work. This one is particularly is, very it's, it's, it's in the permanent collection of maximum gallery of Mongolia and it's particularly, favored, by Mongolian speakers as a masterpiece because you get along gorgeous, as you can see, was down during Socialist timeline to 77.
00:37:15:01 - 00:37:25:10
Orna
But the way it is, share in the clouds is just very different from, socialist realism from European painting. Yeah.
00:37:25:12 - 00:37:28:19
John
You know what? What size painting is that? How big is.
00:37:28:19 - 00:37:43:15
Orna
This? Yeah, it's quite big. I think it's, a 1.1.5 to. It's almost like a square. 1.5, 1.7. Oh meters.
00:37:43:17 - 00:37:46:15
John
Well, I can oh, my gosh, the clouds are huge. Them.
00:37:46:17 - 00:38:11:16
Orna
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they're they're quite big. And unfortunately on the screen you cannot see. But there is clouds. The the brushwork is very important in, moles of rock where the different, different sizes of brushes are used. And you create this kind of ornament. Right. The line work and the line work is very thin and very, ornamental.
00:38:11:16 - 00:38:38:00
Orna
So, to create the kind of war you, and the layering, of those lines to create this ornament is, is also requires a lot of practice in the talent and learning. One aspect of Mongol Circus was that, in the past century is, is they, creating a new class of Mongols or are in art school?
00:38:38:00 - 00:39:04:08
Orna
So art school has fine art class. Where are European style of artists? Is, is taught and alongside there's lots of moments are art where the traditional medium, of art is also and still today, it's, it's like this. So, as I mentioned, obese Mongols are today and artists such as Baathists or, trained in Mongol Turk.
00:39:04:10 - 00:39:35:03
Orna
So they're graduates of this major general painting class. And so the continual that the kind of what their creative but very nuanced color, nuanced, line work in their work where the subject matter is different and it's about scale. It's about commodification of culture, such as in batsman or making pol. And he likes, the figure of the, Mickey Mouse.
00:39:35:05 - 00:39:52:19
Orna
Not because he's particularly drawn to this is just a metaphor for how our culture's commodified. And. Yeah, he's Mickey Mouse is usually is Mickey Mouse is usually strictly bigger. It's not a generally one bigger,
00:39:52:21 - 00:39:56:04
John
So it's almost like a Marco polo play, but it's Mickey polo.
00:39:56:06 - 00:39:57:15
Orna
Yeah. And yeah.
00:39:57:17 - 00:40:27:16
John
It seems like there's learning. There's this level of, industrial kind of athletic to it, you know, some of the, the layering to it. And that's really interesting. The, the, the commentary back on, on contemporary culture where there's it's critique on it, you know, in my understanding, or at least in my research in art world, that there's always been a critique of things, but maybe it's more so nowadays is that do you get that as well or.
00:40:27:18 - 00:40:55:23
Orna
Yes, it's it's very true. So, when I talk to the artist, brothers Derek, he's actually, now represented by a gallery in Dallas in Texas, Louisiana Block Gallery. And, he tells neighbor, he's concerned, first of all, the liberal commodification of culture in Mongolia because there's so much, again, influences coming from United States, from, East Asia, from Korea, for instance.
00:40:55:23 - 00:41:25:23
Orna
But it's not sort of talk or it's not organized. And, that kind of losing of the values, and, the draw are being drawn to, commodity being drawn to popular culture is something that he is very concerned about. He has himself two kids, and I think he sees that in what his kids are doing, and he is concerned about that.
00:41:26:01 - 00:41:57:12
Orna
And second is, as you mentioned, there's industrial. It's it's, concern about also neoliberalism in his case, he also needs questioning about the environmental damage through mining pools just became very popular among the mining companies around the world, because of deposits, you know, gold and and deposits of copper, that are found in Mongolia throughout different locations.
00:41:57:12 - 00:42:24:10
Orna
And, at some point in early or 2000, there are so many companies came from, Australia and Canada and, and China all, with their, with the aim of, of mining. And they were destroying the nature and there were no regulations at that time. And Golden was new to mining. Business. And so there were no regulations to repair their environment when the mining is done.
00:42:24:12 - 00:42:46:00
Orna
And so, many rivers were damaged, many of rangeland with damage. And it is, destroying the lives of pastoral nomads, essentially. And so it's extremely, extremely, concerning and it continues to be a concern. And, by the jury, shows that in this at this paintings, a lot.
00:42:46:02 - 00:42:51:16
John
Do you think, as artists, there's a responsibility to make those comments like that?
00:42:51:18 - 00:43:21:06
Orna
Yes. Like it's it's, that being kind of critiquing or how expressing their concerns you are specifically, directing them towards, political entities or business entities beginning around 2008, with these artists, Obasanjo, who started to show, political figures in his art. So he would take a Buddhist theme with a Buddha image in the middle.
00:43:21:09 - 00:43:53:18
Orna
But they were surrounded right by not divinities, as usual in Buddhist art, which was see, what would people, in in black powers and suits who for him would be, you know, allegorical figures or political corruption or political, instability, political rulers and, and, corporations who are responsible for the damage and all the environment, because they're doing mining and they're, they're, they're not repairing it.
00:43:53:20 - 00:44:21:12
Orna
And so from okay messenger but are continued with and many artists now are doing this this one is by naming, for instance, a woman artist who is showing a, Maitreya Buddha. Imagine what is very pan-Asian route. Amos, entity in Buddhism, because it's a border picture. And my trade sitting in this composition with a bob, a very gray, sort of cityscape.
00:44:21:12 - 00:44:43:15
Orna
And why is it so great? And so, and, because it's polluted, it's air pollution and or now human is one of the most polluted cities in the world. And so she's showing how this Buddhist entity sort of humming and sitting on top of this very polluted location. No.
00:44:43:17 - 00:45:07:10
John
It's not. Wow. You know, I from what I've looked at and read and research over the past couple of months, Mongolia, I think, is one of the most beautiful places I've ever I've learned of. And to to know that this is what's going on is, it's both sad, but also knowing that there are artists that are making work like this, gives me hope as well.
00:45:08:17 - 00:45:27:01
John
I think I have one more question for you. I just I'm super appreciative of your time and conversation today, but, knowing of all the work that you've done, you know, you've been able to curate work in Venice and across the world and and some amazing things. What are you most grateful for in your life?
00:45:27:02 - 00:46:01:03
Orna
I'm grateful for my family. I have, I'm very fortunate to have a very, supporting family supported family. My husband, even though he's not in art, he's always supported my work. We would have the kids and again, my of while my, our kids is in art, but, you know, always supportive and, that's something that, you know, helps me, to do what I do and seek for opportunities and continue my work.
00:46:01:03 - 00:46:13:15
Orna
Even though mongering art is so marginalized and mongering artists are not well know, I still hope that we will. We will see the day when our museums will show this art.
00:46:13:17 - 00:46:27:17
John
I'm sure we will. I'm positive of it. So I just I'm again, I just wanted to thank you for taking some time to chat today, and, and I look forward to continuing the conversation and sharing our conversation with our audience as well.
00:46:27:19 - 00:46:52:03
Orna
Yes. And if anybody's interested to read a little bit about ongoing art or see some more images, welcome to my website, which is just simply Art mongolia.org a r a t Mongolia, a art Mongolia. One word thought and very. And see my, images that I've already. Lord. Oh, my articles, my books and so on.
00:46:52:03 - 00:46:56:22
Orna
I hope you will continue, learning about Mongolia
00:46:56:22 - 00:46:57:05
Orna
again.
00:46:57:05 - 00:47:13:15
John
Just thank you for your time. I don't want to take too much, too more of your time, because I know we're a little bit over, but, Truly, I've been studying Buddhism for my entire life, since I was a small child. And to get the opportunity to talk to someone like you is really kind of a dream come true for me.
00:47:13:15 - 00:47:15:09
John
So thank you so much.
00:47:15:11 - 00:47:20:00
Orna
Thank you to Jerome. What form of Buddhism you're you're studying.
00:47:20:02 - 00:47:36:07
John
Primarily Tibetan Buddhism, but also, Zen Buddhism as well. But it was mostly or has been mostly Tibetan Buddhism. So, this has just been such a treat. And I was so excited to get to talk to you and or whenever, whenever Nanda emailed me about the opportunity. So.
00:47:36:09 - 00:47:41:19
Orna
You know, thank you to you and wishing you all the best in this year, 2025.
00:47:41:21 - 00:47:44:08
John
Definitely like same as same to you too.
00:47:44:10 - 00:47:45:14
Orna
Okay. Thank you.
00:47:45:20 - 00:48:16:16
John
Doctor Orna. So Tim is a distinguished art historian specializing in Asian art with expertise in the art, culture and history of Mongolia. As the first Mongolian curator active in the field since 1983, she has played a pioneering role in bringing Mongolian artistic traditions to global audiences through her exhibitions, research and writing. Her recent exhibition Mongol Zurek the Art of resistance, ran from April to November of 2024 at the Venice Biennale and marks the 100th anniversary of her father's birth.
00:48:16:18 - 00:48:44:09
John
This groundbreaking showcase, featuring historical and contemporary works that highlight the resilience of Mongolian creativity against historical and political upheavals. Recognized with numerous honors including the IU Presidential Arts and Humanities Fellowship and the College Art Association Publication Award, doctor Sultan continues to bridge cultural divides to her forthcoming book, exploring the intersection of environmental art and Mongolian cultural practices, to learn more about Audience Ultimate.
00:48:44:09 - 00:48:56:11
John
Her remarkable work preserving and elevating Mongolian artistic traditions, visit Art mongolia.org. That's w dot art mongolia.org.
00:48:56:11 - 00:49:18:05
John
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00:49:18:07 - 00:49:39:16
John
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John
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