Jenny Morgan: The Moral Ecology of Climate Discourse
Transforming Cancel Culture in Climate Communications
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There's a curious paradox in how we humans approach our most challenging problems. We gather driven by shared concern, yet often find ourselves divided by how we speak about them. Nowhere is this more evident than in our climate conversations.
At the 2021 UN Climate Conference in Glasgow—COP 26—the world witnessed both the passion to solve our planetary crisis and the painful divisions in how we communicate about it. The conference ended with an apology, a leader's voice breaking with emotion: "I apologize for the way this process has unfolded. I am deeply sorry."
We've created a dynamic where the most urgent moral imperatives of our time are discussed in spaces that can quickly become unforgiving. The philosopher Hannah Arendt wrote that forgiveness is "the only reaction which does not merely re-act but acts anew and unexpectedly."
My guest today explores what she calls "the intersection of cancel culture and climate polarization" — those fraught spaces where environmental advocacy meets human defensiveness, where passion for change collides with fear of judgment.
Jenny points to something profound: beneath our arguments about emissions and policy lies the more fundamental challenge of human relationship. Climate action requires not just technical knowledge, but wisdom about how to speak across differences, how to create accountability without shame.
As one South African reconciliation leader put it: "Without forgiveness, we remain tethered to the person who harmed us... When we forgive, we take back control of our own fate and our own feelings. We become our own liberator."
What might it mean to bring a spirit of reconciliation to how we communicate about our planetary home? What paths toward healing might emerge if we approach both our human and ecological relationships with equal care?
Guest
Jenny Morgan is a dedicated advocate for sustainable change, with expertise spanning Corporate Social Responsibility, Social and Environmental Impact, the B Corp Movement, and climate strategy. As a public speaker and climate strategist, she has engaged thousands of individuals, helping to inspire action and meaningful contributions to addressing our climate challenges.
Her work focuses on creating lasting positive impact and fostering collaboration within the climate movement. Jenny has spoken at major events including S&P Global's Carbon Management Americas, PNW Climate Week, B Corp's BLD Conference, and Microsoft's Connect Conference.
In her debut book, "Cancel Culture in Climate: Polarization is Setting Our Planet on Fire: Are We Ready to Fight Back?", Jenny explores how unity and forgiveness can transform climate action, offering practical frameworks for organizations and individuals to engage in more constructive dialogue across differences.
Jenny lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband, two children, and their two large dogs.
Resources Mentioned:
Jenny on LinkedIn
linkedin.com/in/jennycmorganBook Website
www.cancelcultureinclimate.com
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Transcript
[00:00:00] John: There's a curious paradox in how we humans approach our most challenging problems we gather, driven by shared concern, yet often find ourselves divided by how we speak about them. Nowhere is this more evident than in our climate conversations. At the 2021 UN Climate Conference in Glasgow, Cop 26, the world witnessed both the passion to solve our planetary crisis and the painful divisions and how we communicate about it.
[00:00:36] John: The conference ended with an apology, a leader's voice breaking with emotion. "I apologize for the way this process has unfolded. I am deeply sorry." We've created a dynamic where the most urgent moral imperatives of our time are discussed in spaces that can quickly become unforgiving. The philosopher Hannah Arrendt wrote that, "forgiveness is the only reaction which does not merely react, but acts anew and unexpectedly."
[00:01:07] John: My guest today explores what she calls the intersection of cancel culture and climate polarization, those fraught spaces where environmental advocacy meets human defensiveness, where passion for change collides with fear of judgment. Jenny points to something profound. Beneath our arguments about emissions and policy lies the more fundamental challenge of human relationship.
[00:01:33] John: Climate action requires not just technical knowledge, but wisdom about how to speak across differences and how to create accountability without shame. As one South African reconciliation leader put it, "Without forgiveness, we remain tethered to the person who harmed us when we forgive. We take back control of our own fate and our own feelings, we become our own liberator."
[00:02:02] John: What might it mean to bring a spirit of reconciliation to how we communicate about our planetary home? What paths toward healing might emerge if we approach both our human and ecological relationships with equal care? I'm your host, John Hatherly, and this is The Infinite Search.
[00:02:26] John: The book, it's Cancel Culture and Climate Polarization is setting the planet on setting our planet on fire. And are we ready to fight back? Um, and you are the author Jenny Morgan, and I'm excited to have this conversation because some of the things that I have found going through trying to do purpose driven work is that there's this sense of othering that tends to happen.
[00:02:49] John: That I feel like really impedes progress in meaningful ways. And when I first connected with you, that was kind of the thing that really kind of keyed me off on wanting to get to know more about who you are and why you do it. And maybe even like where you came from and, and where these ideas kind of originally formed where...
[00:03:06] John: maybe it wasn't even necessarily in the work you do, but maybe how you were raised or where you grew up. So I'm kind of curious to kind of get a little more of your personal background. Before we dive into the book and, and all the work that you do, um, where'd you grow up? And I'm curious, you know, even going beyond that, was there a moment in childhood that kind of led you into doing things that were in the climate space or in doing more mission driven work and trying to find a little bit more purpose in the work that you do?
[00:03:33] Jenny: Yeah, thank you so much. I'm excited to have this conversation as well. I am from Atlanta, Georgia, and I lived there for, uh, most of my life. I've now been in the Pacific Northwest for about 10 years, but I'm from the southeast. Majority of my family is still there, and I have, I was born busy. I. Came out on the day I was due.
[00:04:00] Jenny: I was on time, ready to go. Uh, and that's been my entire life ever since. So I have always gravitated towards staying busy, staying engaged with others. Um. Really trying to just get people together and forming communities. And so as a kid I had, you know, my own business, um, where I made people their own greeting cards.
[00:04:28] Jenny: They could tell me something that they're interested in and then I would make them a custom greeting card. I. Uh, inflation's caused that cost to go up, but I'm happy to still sell those if you're interested. Um, but I always just wanted to find connection points and so I put on concerts in our swim tennis club and our, our local park.
[00:04:49] Jenny: Um, and I just really liked that. I liked making people happy. I liked the energy that getting together created and so. As I grew in, in life and in my career, I wanted to find ways to make people feel connected and feel like they mattered, and so that then drove me into more impact driven and purposeful work where I.
[00:05:16] Jenny: You leave an experience feeling like you are a part of something and that you have the power to influence in a positive way. And so I'm always trying to find areas where I can. Create that type of environment because I, I see the results that it creates and it's, I mean, it's just as impactful for them as it is for me.
[00:05:39] Jenny: It's, um, it's, it's a selfish endeavor.
[00:05:43] John: Yeah. That's so cool. How would you define value? I'm curious, you know, in the business world, value is defined, you know, by ROI and you know, and profit driven motives, but it seems like there's a little bit more to how you look at that. I'm curious to kinda get your take on that.
[00:05:58] Jenny: Uh, my family and I, we, we have young kids. We just went through this exercise of defining our family values, and I think it's very important not only for individuals, but also for organizations. And a value is something that when all the noise is gone, it's where you are gravitating towards. And so. It's your soul, it's your sense of being.
[00:06:27] Jenny: It's, it's what you are there to do. And so for us, for our family, we decided that our, our values were bravery, compassion, and discipline. And we've brought those three values together because that formulates who we are as people, and it gives us a structure to follow if we're ever conflicted or we are unsure of what we should do next.
[00:06:56] Jenny: Is it brave? Is it compassionate? And does it follow your, a sense of discipline that you're hoping to embody? And it it gives you that. That map and that path forward to what you ultimately want in the end. Because at times it can get very noisy and distracting and it's, it can be difficult. And so, uh, an organization might call that brand identity.
[00:07:19] Jenny: Um, you know, but it, it's really important to go through that exercise and revisit it. Your values can change, but having that core. North star and that compass inside of you can, can provide a tremendous amount of value.
[00:07:33] John: That's amazing. I love that you're, you're doing that with children at such a young age.
[00:07:36] John: I think that's really cool. Um, reading in your book, you know, you talked about Cop 26 kind of being the, the entry point into this world of like, or cancel culture kind of intersect with climate change. But how do you think those values showed up whenever you first started experiencing that sort of like.
[00:07:55] John: Cognitive between what you were thought you were trying to achieve and then this sort of, um, pushback against the communications that were coming out?
[00:08:03] Jenny: Yeah, I mean, that, that kind of goes back to the distractions. If, if you ask yourself, what am I here for? And then I. It changes into, I'm here to ensure that the audience perceives me in this specific light.
[00:08:22] Jenny: That's not actually what you're here for. And, and that was what I experienced when I, to give a bit of context, I was helping write a blog post to help. Illustrate all of the various sustainable efforts that Microsoft had put into place to GE to get ready for this big international event around climate.
[00:08:45] Jenny: And there was so much that had been done that was so impactful and beautiful and strong and bold and. That was what we were here for, to share what came about these efforts, what results have, have we achieved? What positive impact have we put for the planet and for those that we're engaging with. And then to have it then be.
[00:09:13] Jenny: Misconstrued and then be confused on, well, what we're here for is to write a blog to stand on a soapbox and kind of be the leader and have everyone admire us. And that's not actually true. And so I think we forgot what we were there for. And so we cop, that cop was coming out of the pandemic and there was a lot of scrutiny around that event.
[00:09:39] Jenny: And. Instead of operating from a place of confidence and coming back to what those core values were of why we were doing the work we were doing, we were then operating in a, from a place of fear where we were concerned about how it would be perceived and what could, what negative outcomes could actually happen if we share something positive we've done, and so.
[00:10:05] Jenny: It was very, uh, it was a fear-driven decision in my opinion. And, and I think a lot of us operate and make decisions based on fear of how we'll be perceived versus sharing confidently the progress that we've made.
[00:10:20] John: Yeah, I remember, I remember a lot of the communications that were coming out around that event, and the one thing that really stuck to me was, um, at the very end, the person, um, one of the people who was, who was leading the.
[00:10:34] John: The, the event, um, apologized and just seemed in incredibly, um, sad about the whole thing. And I remember thinking about all the people that probably came together to try to do something. You know, you, you talk about this idea that none of us are perfect, right? That we're all living in this gray area. And as I've gone through and done the research for this episode, that keeps coming back to me about, um, we, we can't just have this sort of polarized.
[00:11:03] John: To your point, this dichotomous sort of thinking. Um, can we, can we kind of dive into that a little bit more about like this dichotomous world that, whether it's social media or just general human emotions that put this world into two A or B or black or white, and how you sort of see that playing out in climate communications?
[00:11:24] Jenny: Yeah. I, I have struggled with dichotomous thinking for. A lot of my life, um, because I tend to, I've been to many, I've been through a lot of years of therapy to kind of address this of. What, what's behind that way of thinking? Why are you putting this extreme categorization and perfection on top of yourself?
[00:11:54] Jenny: Like, what, what is that? What, what are you looking to achieve by cutting corners and just putting things into two buckets, you know, black or white, good or bad? Um, all or nothing. These very extreme categories. And I think that dichotomous thinking is. It tricks the individual to think that they're being more efficient with their time.
[00:12:19] Jenny: And in actuality it's cutting off what, what it really is to be human, which is complex and always evolving and it's fluid. And I think we tend to forget that 'cause we're busy and, um. We're constantly just moving, and I think if we can be more cognizant of our own dichotomous thinking, and then the way that society has, you know, created an environment where this company's bad, this company's good, um, this individual's bad, this individual's good.
[00:12:59] Jenny: I think if we can try to be more. Aware of that type of thinking, we can actually expand our network and expand the, the amount of impact we can create. So with climate communication, we, there's organizations that are always trying to kind of share that they're good, that they're doing it now with such a.
[00:13:22] Jenny: Heightened exposure on, you know, every single person's action, every single organization's action. Now we're seeing companies and individuals go quiet because what's the, what's the result I'm going to get? Uh, it's a lose lose situation in this type of world where we, you know, are putting everything in a bucket and.
[00:13:46] Jenny: I think if we can be more celebratory about progress and intention and evolution and moving forward, if we can create an environment where that is the goal, then we'll actually see. Climate progress skyrocket. 'cause right now we're shoving those that are actually doing amazing work. We're shoving them into a box and they're going silent.
[00:14:15] Jenny: And now we have individuals now trying to determine what's the ROI I'm gonna get out of this. Right? And if the R-O-A-R-O-I is nothing, then we're gonna keep getting nothing. And so I. I'm constantly trying to be aware of that type of thinking and then, you know, trying to engage with media outlets and um, you know, others that are really trying to show both sides and have more action oriented dialogue rather than shame and blame.
[00:14:45] John: Yeah, I know I'm 100% guilty of that sort of thinking where I'm like othering the person, thinking they're the villain. Um, thinking that. I just need to work with people who are only like-minded and all those sorts of things. And it's definitely been a progress in my life of trying to disengage from those sorts of ways of moving through the world.
[00:15:03] John: Um, even just being vulnerable and admitting that is not even an easy thing to do. Are there ways that you have kind of thought up or built frameworks or tools that can kind of help someone disengage from that sort of thinking and, and start to have more meaningful conversations?
[00:15:20] Jenny: Yeah. In, in the book I have, I've, I've somewhat identified who, you know, three different readers.
[00:15:26] Jenny: Even though I do think that this, this book is applicable to all movements of progress and purposefulness, but I wanna stay. Very, you know, specific in what I'm hoping to achieve, which is climate security. Um, but in the book I've, I, I identified somewhat three different readers. One is a very passionate activist that might feel frustrated, and then the two others are organizations that are.
[00:15:58] Jenny: Either trying to be bold and confident in a time where it's, you know, very, um, scrutinized and this, you know, this goal of perfection is placed on them. And then for organizations that have potentially committed a blunder or have been accused of, of something and how could they rebuild? But in the chapter that's.
[00:16:20] Jenny: Aligned towards those that are feeling very passionate and angry and frustrated and and tend to isolate others that don't meet their standards. I have questions in there that you can ask yourself to really help you kind of lower the amount of adrenaline that's pumping inside of you and try to come back to that core message and those core values, and so.
[00:16:45] Jenny: There's five questions in there that you can ask yourself of, you know, are you operating from a position of certainty? Um, are you attacking an entity or are you attacking an idea? That one's really key because we often, I attack entities without even doing the due diligence that's required to even understand.
[00:17:09] Jenny: Is this person or organization guilty or not? Uh, but the headline's usually attacking an entity 'cause we need something to be angry at. And if you're unable to go through the, the amount of time that's needed to really discern, you know, what, what happened here? What's, what Really? Who, who's at fault? What, what's, what are the next steps?
[00:17:36] Jenny: I advise those to attack the idea. So if you hear X, Y, Z did, uh, you know, falsify their climate impact report? If you can't go into all the details of what that headline means, and I'm attacking media right now just 'cause that, well, I guess I'm doing what I, I'm saying not today. Um, but if you are, if you are engaging with, you know, media headlines that tend to do this.
[00:18:06] Jenny: Stop and take a step back and formulate an opinion of you want impact reports to be transparent and accountable and leave it there. That's gonna help you really start to understand what you're trying to get out of every conversation. What are you trying to get out of others in your community or others in your network?
[00:18:29] Jenny: What are you trying to get them to do? What are you trying to focus more of your time on? And it's gonna help you spend time on action oriented solutions and conversations versus spending so much time trying to find gotcha moments. 'cause we can really get swept up in that.
[00:18:49] John: Yeah. It's so easy to get swept in as things, you know, I think back to scapegoating in the site, this relationship with, you know, cancel culture and what that really means and the fact that it's been around for forever.
[00:19:01] John: As long as humans have been around, we've been scapegoating one another. Specifically around scarce resources and the fact that we're coming into a, a part in the history of the human race where resources are becoming way more, way more scarce. And so we're seeing this sort of polarization. I don't think that it's just from the technological changes and social media and those sorts of things, but I think that there's something a little bit more systemic that's going on that's causing us this amount of adrenaline and fear response where that's what we're latching onto.
[00:19:34] John: You know, how, how can we, in a world of social media like that we see right now find space to create accountability without canceling?
[00:19:46] Jenny: I, I, I think that's key because they're often confused. They're used synonymously and they're completely different and. Accountability seeks for a positive outcome. It wants you to succeed even if it's found a flaw or a mistake or a lie or you know, anything under that it, it wants change for the positive and for the good, whereas cancel culture is seeking to punish and shame and then push.
[00:20:22] Jenny: Whatever we're upset about away from society, away from us, we're, they're not a part of our group. And if we continue to do that, we're gonna continue to silo one another. And this type of movement that impacts the entire globe is dependent on every single person and entity progressing forward. And. If that means that your neighbor has now decided to focus all of their efforts on plastic straws, let them do that for a little while.
[00:20:55] Jenny: That is a great starting off point for someone to start to learn more about what it means to be a, a person in climate. And sure, it, it might be misguided, it might not have a lot of. Positive results at this time. But what the positive result is actually is now you have one more member of the team now focused on lowering their footprint and being a better environmental steward.
[00:21:26] Jenny: And so six months from now, that might mean that they're now gonna switch out their light bulbs and then they're gonna start talking about, you know, they're gonna maybe completely change the way that they're powering their home. And so. We can't judge others that are on, in a, in a different place than we are in our journey.
[00:21:48] Jenny: And I think as long as we are continuing to push organizations and individuals forward, then that's what matters. And so I, I just, if we continue to try to just play investigator and trying to figure out who's. Doing wrong. We're accidentally spending majority of our time reducing the amount of impact that we can have.
[00:22:19] Jenny: And I, I think it's, we often don't realize that we might be spending years just screaming and, and stomping our feet versus actually spending years trying to get more people aware and engaged in this movement.
[00:22:36] John: Yeah, definitely. I'm part of a organization or group that of creative people who have tried to move or moving away from working with fossil fuel companies at the same time.
[00:22:47] John: You may know them, I'm not gonna bring up their name or whatever, but, um, the same time I'm constantly thinking about this. Um, I'm not of shame that gets put on the campaigns that are developed, and I don't know who would respond positively to that or if that's what the goal is. Or if there's a goal, that's something else, right?
[00:23:09] John: Where we're just trying to talk to only the people who already see something the way I, I wanna see it or whatever. But I think to what you have talked about in your book is that change doesn't happen from having conversations with the people who already think the way you do. It's from having conversations with people who you would quote unquote, maybe see as an enemy or whatever.
[00:23:30] John: Um, and that there's a certain amount of forgiveness or. Lack of judgment that needs to happen in order to have these sorts of meaningful conversations. What, is there like a, like an, like a, a concrete example that you can give of a large organization that would have fear, right. They would, they would going into like green hushing or green recanting or that sort of, of, um, communication strategy where there's some space given to them to be vulnerable.
[00:24:00] John: Because from my experience working with large organizations that. They often operate from a place of fear in as opposed to love because they're, they're so consumed by the outward projection of how people are gonna perceive them and how that's gonna shift their own business. Like how do we, how do we make that space for, for those conversations?
[00:24:21] John: That's like, that's incredibly hard
[00:24:23] Jenny: as just a consumer. It, I think it can be really difficult because you holding an organization accountable. Is not going to gain media attention versus you standing outside their headquarters and you know, throwing something at their door that's gonna at least get, make the news.
[00:24:50] Jenny: But then. I would then push back and say, what happens after? I don't think anyone and I, as we see, no one's going back to the drawing board being like, well, we've got 10 angry people outside. Maybe we should reconsider our entire business model that isn't happening. And so it's, even though it's so tempting, we need to know exactly what produces results.
[00:25:14] Jenny: And so. I think when you are in a conversation, whether it's with. In a small group or you're speaking to a brand and you're, you're wanting a result that's positive. You need to encourage transparency and not be pushing for perfection, but pushing for that progress and really wanting to encourage transparency so that no one feels as if they need to hide.
[00:25:43] Jenny: I think a lot of organizations are doing incredible work and they're doing it silently because they are. Afraid that because they haven't solved climate change, they will then be deemed part of the problem versus part of the solution. So they're just not sharing that information. So engage in that solution oriented type of dialogue.
[00:26:06] Jenny: And you know, whether that's through social media or engaging with a specific decision maker. One thing that I've noticed in this work is that a lot of times we associate a brand with. They've become like their own person. It's Shell, it's h and m, they're a person, but they're not actually, it's, that's a community that's built of hundreds of thousands of people.
[00:26:32] Jenny: And if you can engage with decision makers specifically and start to talk about, you know, uh, mobilizing. Your internal workforce or trying to communicate what you are looking for as a result and push for those structural changes. Whether you can do that in a one-to-one conversation or you know, with a decision maker that can actually put forth influence at a company.
[00:26:58] Jenny: That's where we can actually see change. It takes more time, but then the results will actually come to fruition versus these, you know, short, um. Dopamine filled type of actions that don't actually produce what we're looking for. And so being really intentional about encouraging growth and engagement and progress is really important.
[00:27:25] Jenny: Uh, because if we continue to operate from, you know, using shame as a mechanism, then we'll continue to see shame-based behavior and fear-based behavior.
[00:27:37] John: How do you facilitate those conversations within the organization?
[00:27:41] Jenny: Uh, so I mean, whenever I'm talking to organizations internally, there's a lot of cancel culture that comes inside of an organization.
[00:27:50] Jenny: So there's employees that have different. Performance indicators that they're striving for. So an easy example is like a sustainability organization and a marketing organization. They are typically driving very different outcomes and wanting very different results. On the surface. And so they're often not speaking to each other.
[00:28:12] Jenny: They're the sustainability organization is, you know, measuring their carbon footprint. They're looking to reduce their, you know, their energy usage and creative, uh, travel policy and, you know, they're doing all of these things and then the marketing organization is looking to gain, you know, whatever those, those.
[00:28:35] Jenny: That those efforts are, and then translate it in a really easy and accessible way. And if they don't speak to one another and understand each other's causes, then they will then be each other's downfall. Right? And if they're not working hand in hand, then they're ultimately going to just ruin each other's work.
[00:28:56] Jenny: And so when I'm working with an organization specifically and trying to facilitate these conversations. A lot of it is just coming to common ground, building a rapport and understanding each other's challenges, and being able to create space to share those challenges and what they're looking for, and then exploring those perspectives.
[00:29:15] Jenny: How can you then talk about it? What does that look like for me? How does that affect your daily life? What were, what would you hope to get out of your colleague and just kind of start to really explore that and talk about it openly in a safe place, and then that inspires change. People start, people want to help.
[00:29:34] Jenny: I, I think there's 99% of the population wants to be part of something positive. Wants to be a hero in the story, wants to help. Be an advocate for others. And so if you can then inspire that type of behavior, then you can actually produce results. And that creates connections, not only just in this one conversation, it's long-term connections that people now have where they remember, oh, Mary's working on that, and Steve is struggling with this.
[00:30:04] Jenny: And they remember that and they remember that person for what they're trying to do and what they're trying to achieve and how they can help. And now you've created. Commonality. Even if before you had these different directives that you were following, now you actually see how they overlap and impact one another.
[00:30:21] Jenny: And so these types of conversations are important between all types of relationships. And the the internal ones are, are really important too because it's the way that US citizens are understanding what industry is doing to help. Solve this problem. And if internal organizations aren't addressing cancel culture and trying to find ways to be advocates for one another, then us as consumers are going to continue to think that industry is failing us.
[00:30:55] John: One thing I've noticed with, you know, younger generation, like Gen Z or whatever is, is how authentic that they, they want to live in this world. And the way I've seen things shift over the past couple of decades or the last decade or so, is. Um, it's always a moving target and there's always like this room for being kind of messy.
[00:31:12] John: And there's even a song about it now that I think went viral. Um, and I just love that. I, I love that there's this opportunity for businesses to do that because I think that there's a lot of, um, change that can happen from that, that's really positive.
[00:31:25] Jenny: Yeah. I, I think also the messiness of it all is that it isn't a zero sum game.
[00:31:31] Jenny: I think that that's really important too. Like it's messy because it's. It's everyone. We all impact each other. It's not in these little boxes. I, I love that piece of being messy too. Um, that authenticity of that I'm, this, I've achieved this, I'm struggling with this, and I really admire what this organization's doing too, or this person's doing.
[00:31:57] Jenny: I, I think, um, that's another thing I've noticed too, with. Specific generations, um, celebrating other successes too, whereas that would. I think in the past be seen as you admitting fault or you admitting that you are not the best or you failed in some way. When actuality it, it actually helps spread you out.
[00:32:22] Jenny: If you can only prioritize two philanthropic engagements because you are a human or, or you're an organization that needs to, you know, keep the lights on and you have to pick what your values are, for example. Then celebrate others that are doing things that you don't have time or resources to do because that's real that, and that actually spreads you out to be an advocate for all positive movements.
[00:32:55] Jenny: I mean, for me personally, I really gravitate towards climate equity just because that. It engages me in a specific way that I can have positive influence and I've seen results from that. Whereas I have family members that are very active in human rights and social change. I can't do everything that I want to see in the world just because I have to sleep at night and I can't.
[00:33:24] Jenny: I can't do it all. I wanna do it all, but I need to prioritize what. Where my efforts are going to produce the best results and then celebrate those that are doing all the things that I can't do right now, but that I wanna see that change and that that impact in the world and that then helps me be a force for good.
[00:33:46] Jenny: And I think I, I hope that we'll continue to see that kind of. Messiness where I can't, I can't solve homelessness in the Pacific Northwest, and I would love to, I, I think that it's a huge issue and I. Would love to spend more time on that, but I have friends that do, and so if I can give them support and celebrate their impact and, you know, just be an ear and be a cheerleader for them, then that's me being a part of purposefulness and, you know, and so I, I hope organizations embrace that kind of messiness where they say, I can't be everywhere at once, but I can't wait to see.
[00:34:34] Jenny: This organization achieve the results that they're claiming to, you know, wanna grow towards, because I can't do that too. And I hope that they succeed in that as well. And being celebratory,
[00:34:46] John: you were giving an example of an impact report and it was the first time I felt like I read an impact report where I was like, wow, that was really impactful, um, because of how authentic it was.
[00:34:54] John: And it was, it wasn't like, Hey, we did all these great things and it was just this, um, parade of stats. There was this certain vulnerability to it. I just, I really, really think that there's a huge opportunity to embrace that sort of, um, way of communicating at an organizational level that, yeah, it totally takes bravery as a value to in, to embody that sort of approach.
[00:35:18] John: But I think that the payoff could, could be really, really impactful.
[00:35:23] Jenny: Yeah. And feedback isn't bad. Like that's something that we should all. Understand too that if
[00:35:32] John: so few people do though, right?
[00:35:34] Jenny: Because it's hard. Yeah. It's hard to hear it. It is really hard. Um, but if we, if organizations could hear feedback and say, we're gonna add that into our next meeting and talk about that, and then we can decide if there's something that we can do to address this feedback rather than thinking that if.
[00:35:57] Jenny: Feedback. Feedback is the, the end of their company, you know, and so that, I think that is then where companies can lash out or go into hiding. It's kind of this fight or flight, um, reaction. And I, I think if we get more comfortable with feedback, I think we can actually see that transparent dialogue evolve into something really beautiful.
[00:36:25] John: As I was reaching, researching this for this episode and reading your book, I started thinking about reconciliation in Apartheid South Africa. And while there are two different conversations between sustainability and climate change and racism and apartheid, I saw these, this similarity around forgiveness that I thought was really interesting to me.
[00:36:45] John: I'm gonna read a quote from him because I just, I think it kind of plays into what we're talking about. Forgiveness is the only way to heal ourselves and to be free from the past. Without forgiveness, we, we remain tethered to the person who harmed us. We are bound to the chains of bitterness tied together, trapped.
[00:37:06] John: Until we can forgive the person who harmed us, that person will hold the keys to our happiness. That person will be our jailer. And when we forgive, we take back control of our own fate and our own feelings. We become our own liberator. I remember I thought about that and I went and recently looked it up and I was like, there's this capacity to own our own feelings when we're having these conversations around climate change and around perceived wrongs, and the fact that we're all guilty in this, in this world, that none of us are really free from the effects that we've been producing generationally.
[00:37:48] John: Within this generation, um, as much as I love to, you know, took my New Yorker bag to the farmer's market, um, there's a certain amount of like ownership of our own feelings that I thought was really valuable in that statement that I think could really be applied to the, what we're talking about today. How do we see that play out at an organizational level?
[00:38:11] Jenny: Yeah. I, I feel like I've somewhat cheated because I. Just writing this book. I was listening to a podcast, um, with a very well known author that was talking about. Why they write books and it completely just hit the nail on the head of writing a book is a way to process deep feelings and understand them after the fact.
[00:38:44] Jenny: I've done an enormous amount of research to write this book and have gone through personal and professional, uh, you know, discovery and really. Trying to understand what I wanna say, how I want to engage with the reader and with an audience. And I, I've been writing this, I've been speaking about this topic for many years now, and it took me over a year to write this book, and that's allowed for me to process a lot of these feelings and find forgiveness in.
[00:39:20] Jenny: Not only in the state where we are from an environmental sense, but I've also found forgiveness in my personal life through this work. And I was just recently at a climate conference where individuals were very stressed and worried and scared, and I. It made me realize that a lot of people are in all different, I talked about different places in your climate journey.
[00:39:53] Jenny: They're also in different places of their. Processing the state of the world journey and how angry they are, how frustrated they are, how disengaged they are, uh, you know, how much they've thought about it, how much they've tested out different frameworks and tools to have positive conversations where they've tried to have an open dialogue with someone that they might deem their adversary.
[00:40:14] Jenny: You know, how, how much experience have we all had in this realm? And I think forgiveness is a great start. It's easier said than done, but to do it, it takes that type of effort to put yourself in that vulnerable, vulnerable position by saying, I, I might be willing to forgive. And just starting there and then exploring what that would then look like, and then you start to hear someone else's perspective.
[00:40:43] Jenny: I mean, I work. I speak with a lot of those in very problematic industries that are known for polluting heavily, and they're people working at a job that provides a paycheck to feed their families and pay for their summer camps and vacations. And they too are somewhat lost in what that means for them.
[00:41:08] Jenny: And so without talking and having conversations, we won't ever really know. How to move together, unified if we don't collaborate. And so being just open to the idea of forgiveness is the perfect first step. And I, I definitely relate to that, that
[00:41:26] John: quote. So then what does that culture look like for you, where that forgiveness is easier to do, where those conversations are easier to have?
[00:41:39] Jenny: I, I, I mean, the one thing that comes to mind is. Dropping the obsession around verbiage. I think that that could be a really good first step. I had a conversation with a family member where I was talking about this book and I said, global warming, and that really triggered them in a way that I wasn't anticipating.
[00:42:03] Jenny: I don't see this person very often, and so. They really pushed back on where the conversation was going. I just switched the word to pollution and then we started to talk more about aspects of pollution that we don't like and what we're hoping to see, um, in that reduction of. Waste that, you know, we're we encounter on our beaches and you know, in our neighborhoods and in our parks, and really just simplified it back to what are we actually talking about?
[00:42:35] Jenny: I don't need to get into the science of what greenhouse gas emissions do in our atmosphere and how they warm the planet. I can just talk about pollution in our air and in our water and on our ground, and. It really simplified the conversation and got us on the same page. We were, no, we were family members.
[00:42:58] Jenny: Then we became adversaries. Then we found common ground, and I think if we can be more empathetic to others that relate to these types of issues with different words than we do, I think that that. Can really provide a lot more open conversations. Now, of course, I mean, do not put your foot down if people are using words that spread hate or violence or harm others.
[00:43:31] Jenny: Set boundaries. That's one thing that I, I do wanna articulate that, you know, at times I'm talking about these conversations and they're like, so I should just let everyone do anything they want And no, still find what your boundary is and your boundary's probably changing every day. But if we get so specific on, you know, banning the claim of carbon neutrality, for example, that's been a huge push where you're not allowed to say you're carbon neutral anymore without.
[00:43:59] Jenny: Uh, when we remove words like that and we continue to create these boxes, organizations and individuals won't know where to go from there. And so I think having open conversations that are empathetic, that address impact holistically, is where I wanna see that movement, where we take the time to understand each other and.
[00:44:29] Jenny: Find ways to help one another move forward. That's how I see a positive climate moving movement evolving.
[00:44:37] John: Yeah, definitely. And to, to your point, like there's a big difference between canceling someone and, and accountability where you're offering a path forward. Because without that path forward, they're just, we're just all stuck in the same space.
[00:44:51] John: We're never gonna get moving forward.
[00:44:54] Jenny: Yeah, I mean I could have taken that conversation with that family member and called them ignorant and you know, really shamed them for not wanting to understand global warming. Or I could kind of put my ego down and just try to understand, well, what, what in the climate movement matters to you?
[00:45:14] Jenny: And they play golf and they love going to the beach, and there's a lot of implications that climate change has on those. Activities and those hobbies and those spaces, and so how can we now change the conversation? And so I think if we can drop our ego and really focus on what the outcome is, then we'll see a lot more success than, than we see now,
[00:45:39] John: you know, over the next 10 years.
[00:45:42] John: Where do you see the, um, the climate movement going?
[00:45:47] Jenny: Realistically, or in my, in my
[00:45:50] John: realistically, I know that we're in a world of hurt right now and there's a lot of regulations that are getting, um, pushback and people want to get rid of the EPA and all sorts of very scary things. And so just on a realistic level, how do we see this playing out?
[00:46:08] Jenny: I think the world operates on a pendulum, and so we, when we see. Our governments transitioning in a, in a way that doesn't support positive impact, then individuals and industry tends to step up and it continues to kind of teeter totter. And so I don't think steps backwards means failure. I think that when a gap is created.
[00:46:41] Jenny: It tends to be filled by just another group, so as we've seen. We've seen evidence of this. I mean, you saw the amount of community come together for the wildfires in California. I see it a lot in my local area where, you know, wildfires happen a lot and starting to see different ways that community organizations are starting to show each other support and.
[00:47:14] Jenny: I think we will continue to see a population get more engaged in this movement where I think. It's often been somewhat put on top of, you know, big corporates or government agencies. If everyone operated towards positive impact, then obviously we could expedite this, uh, much faster. But I do think we're gonna see a lot more community engagement and people coming out and trying to influence and be forces of good and.
[00:47:53] Jenny: In 10 years from now, that might then sway the amount of engagement that industry and governments then participate because they're wanting to please the, the, the population. And if the population's more engaged in these types of movements, then I think we'll continue to see that type of forward. Forward progression.
[00:48:15] Jenny: Um, so I, I do think that we've taken a couple steps back, but I think we've also not heard what everyone had to say. This movement has isolated a lot of individuals from the conversation. Those that are operating on a paycheck to paycheck basis aren't thinking about what happens to their diaper after they throw it out.
[00:48:37] Jenny: If we can continue to hear one another and meet people where they are, then we're gonna be creating a large movement of those that are engaged in this type form of progress. Whatever progress might mean someone with means is going to potentially do something at 10 x the rate, then someone else that's still understanding and learning, understanding where their influence is and what they can do.
[00:49:00] Jenny: And so I, I, I'm, I'm excited to see. That level of community engagement, because I think that there's room for that to grow, and we're already seeing that ripple effect.
[00:49:13] John: Yeah, I definitely feel like I've, I'm seeing more and more around community building, around conversations and verbiage around community and, and building that sort of, um, personal infrastructure for, for change like that.
[00:49:28] John: I know that most people who write a book. As they're writing it, they're like, I know, know what my next book is gonna be. Um, so what's your next book if you're gonna write one?
[00:49:40] Jenny: Um, I'll, you'll just have to promise that my husband won't listen to this episode. Otherwise.
[00:49:48] Jenny: Um, I, I, so when I wrote the book. It was much longer and I cut it because there was a sense of urgency that I had that I wanted people to read it and know how to be a better steward in this climate movement. And so no matter who they were, if they were an angry activist or a sustainable decision maker at a corporation or you know, whomever they are, or just an individual out in the world that they could then.
[00:50:23] Jenny: Put the book down and be a part of a positive conversation. But in its original state, I had a lot more about how trauma, unaddressed trauma dictates the way we perceive the world and this armor that we carry around. And I think that then. Evolves into the tribalism. You know, we talked about this kind of like, I'm in this camp, I'm in this camp, um, and I think that unaddressed trauma is what makes us seek out those that are like-minded because we want to feel seen and heard because we haven't addressed whatever needs to be addressed.
[00:51:11] Jenny: And so. We tend to gravitate towards those that we might even just be making it up like they compost and they have cloth diapers. They are just like me. They understand everything about me as they parent. The same way, like we build this whole story when in actuality that might not even be the case. And I think that leads to this very siloed society.
[00:51:35] Jenny: And so. If I did write a second book, um, I think I wanna talk about trauma and how it relates to the climate movement and how to process our feelings and understand I what's, what's motivating us, what, what has happened to us, what we haven't. Addressed yet and how that has influenced the way we participate in climate and then working backwards from there.
[00:52:10] Jenny: Because I think that if we all were able to take the time to think about that, then we can show up tomorrow as a stronger whole individual that can give that time and those resources that are required for this movement to succeed.
[00:52:30] John: I can't wait to read that book. I, I think that, um, screaming is only gonna get us so far in life.
[00:52:36] John: Yeah. And we're really gonna make some change. We gotta build some bridges,
[00:52:39] Jenny: you know? Yes. Yeah.
[00:52:41] John: So I definitely want to thank you for your time today. Um, the book is Cancel Culture and Climate Polarization is Setting our Planet on Fire, everybody to fight back. Um, and again, I just wanna say thank you from the bottom of my heart.
[00:52:55] John: It's been a great, not just conversation, but also, um. I'm just spending researching about how to better and more effectively communicate about the things that I think really matter to me and, um, billions of other people on this planet. And I think it's the biggest issue that we have as human race. Um, and so thank you for doing what we do.
[00:53:15] Jenny: Thank you, John. I appreciate it.
[00:53:17] John: Jenny Morgan is a dedicated advocate for sustainable change with expertise spanning corporate social responsibility, social and environmental impact, the B Corp movement and climate strategy. As a public speaker and climate strategist, she has engaged thousands of individuals helping to inspire action and meaningful contributions to addressing our climate challenges.
[00:53:37] John: Her work focuses on creating lasting positive impact and fostering collaboration within the climate movement. Jenny has spoken at major events including s and p Global's, carbon Management, Americas P and W Climate, week B Corps's, BLD Conference, and Microsoft's Connect Conference in her debut book, cancel Culture and Climate.
[00:53:56] John: Polarization is setting our planet on fire. Are we ready to fight back? Jenny explores how unity and forgiveness can can transform climate action, offering practical frameworks for organizations and individuals to engage in more constructive dialogue across differences. Jenny lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband, two children and their two large dogs.
[00:54:17] John: To connect with Jenny and learn more about her work in building bridges within the climate movement. Visit www.cancelcultureinclimate.com or find her on linkedin at linkedin.com/in/JennyCMorgan. We value your thoughts and feedback. Please consider leaving us a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
[00:54:37] John: Your feedback not only helps us grow, but also helps others find us. If today's discussion moved you or sparked a thought, please share it with us and with someone you know. You can also join our community on Instagram to continue the conversation and connect with fellow listeners at Infinite Search. To delve deeper into this topic and explore additional episodes, visit our website at www.theinfinitesearch.com, where you'll find extended show notes, further readings, and a full transcript of today's episode.
[00:55:04] John: The Infinite Search is a heart-centered production of Chamber, a creative studio specializing in purpose-driven branding, design, and experiences for clients of every size. For more information, visit www. Dot, this is chamber.com.