Azzedine Downes: Awakening Hope Through Conservation
Exploring Faith, Leadership, and Environmental Stewardship in Global Conservation
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There are those whose lives are marked by a deep and abiding love for the natural world—a love that transcends the boundaries of culture, geography, and time. Today, our search lands us in conversation with one such individual.
As the CEO of the International Fund for Animal Welfare, Azzedine Downes has spent his life not only advocating for wildlife conservation but bridging the human and natural worlds through his profound understanding of both.
His journey is not just a professional one; it is deeply personal, rooted in experiences that span continents and cultures, and it is reflected in the stories he shares in his memoir, The Couscous Chronicles.
In his work and writing, Azzedine invites us to see beyond the headlines and statistics, to witness an intricate dance of life that weaves together animals, people, and ecosystems. He reminds us that conservation is not simply about saving species—it is about healing the fractures in our relationship with the earth and with each other.
This is a conversation about what it means to truly inhabit our world—to be stewards of the natural world, not just in action but in spirit. It is a reflection on the power of stories to shape our understanding of who we are and where we are going, and it is an invitation to see ourselves as part of something much larger, much older, and much more beautiful than we often realize.
Today, we’ll explore the intersections of leadership, culture, and conservation in Azzedine’s journey, and how his work continues to shape the future of our planet’s most precious ecosystems.
Guest
Azzedine Downes is the President and CEO of the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW), a position he has held since 2012 after joining the organization in 1997 as Executive Vice President. Under his leadership, IFAW has expanded its reach and deepened its impact across the globe, notably securing 16,000 acres of critical elephant habitat in Kenya and forging an innovative partnership with INTERPOL’s Environmental Crime Program.
Azzedine’s career in international development and conservation spans decades, including his work as Chief of Party for the U.S. Agency for International Development in Jerusalem and Morocco, and as Acting Regional Director for the U.S. Peace Corps in Eurasia and the Middle East. His unique ability to bridge local action with global policy has made him a powerful advocate for both people and wildlife.
Recognized by Fast Company as one of the “100 Most Creative People in Business,” and regularly featured on The Nonprofit Times’s “Power and Influence Top 50” list, Azzedine’s leadership is both visionary and impactful. A graduate of Providence College and Harvard University, he speaks Arabic, English, and French, and brings a truly international perspective to his work in conservation and animal welfare.
To learn more about Azzedine Downes and the transformative work of IFAW, visit
www.IFAW.org.
Resources Mentioned
The Couscous Chronicles by Azzedine Downes
https://www.amazon.com/Couscous-Chronicles-Stories-Donkeys-Cultures/dp/1633310752
Sufi Inayatiyya Order
https://inayatiyya.org/
Jane Goodall Council for Hope
https://janeslegacy.org/council-for-hope/
From The Library
Extended studies from The Infinite Search library. Dive deeper with some of our favorite titles related to the episode.
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Transcript
[00:01:45] Azzedine, thank you for sharing this space and time with me today. I'm really excited to learn more about what you do and, um, maybe for, for me at least, um, why.
[00:01:58] Azzedine: Yeah, no, thank you for having me and, um, I love, I love what you just said because I think it's so critical to understand the value of how we see ourselves in the world and on the planet.
[00:02:15] And so many people I think have lost that ability or willingness to set aside the needs of the daily life for a larger vision of what, what we can be as a, as a specie ourselves.
[00:02:28] John: Yeah, I've really had a great time. researching for this episode and learning more about, um, a lot of the different things that I've, I've noticed that you've said around hope and resiliency and, you know, guiding future generations and, you know, thinking back to this idea of what we do and why we do it.
[00:02:46] And, you know, for, for me, people, I think their connection with nature often begins in childhood. And, you know, I, I'm really curious about, you know, the origins of why people do what they do. And I'm just curious, was, was there a specific moment? Earlier in your life where you had this understanding and connection, um, with the natural world that stayed with you, you know, knowing that, you know, now you're the CEO of IFAW and all the work that you've done across the globe.
[00:03:12] Azzedine: Yeah, you know, it's an interesting question because in a lot of the discussions that I have in the talks that I do, I sometimes get asked what was that pivotal moment. And so I've, I've thought about this in terms of my own connection to nature. And when I think back of the earliest moments that I could remember, I had a neighbor and I lived in the city, but the neighbor was very into gardening.
[00:03:39] And I remember even, even as a three and four year old, I was absolutely fascinated by the plants and how they grew and what actually was happening. And I. I was so ignorant. Uh, I always remember this moment of, of watering the flower and putting the water into the flower. And then this woman who had no children, you know, said, no, that's not how it works.
[00:04:03] You have to, you have to put the water in the feet of the, of the plant. And so I started thinking about, Well, was there one moment, there's probably one moment in my career, which we can talk about when I lived in, uh, in Jerusalem, uh, in some very violent times, but the connection with nature was always Of wanting to be outside, uh, and sort of the fantasies that many children have of thinking about Tarzan and Mowgli and having, you know, a pet elephant and chimpanzee.
[00:04:38] And, um, I think, you know, that joy as a child is often lost for, for many people. And so one of the things we try to do is to reignite that joy. And that, that connectivity that I think most children have it innately, but it is somehow lost because of the pressures of everyday life. So I've always thought of being outside, but in a very fanciful way that I could.
[00:05:11] I could be friends, I could be friends with all of these wild animals, which, um, never really happened, uh, Jane Goodall has taught me a lot about that. She can speak to the chimpanzees and things like that, but so few people can actually do those things.
[00:05:27] John: It reminds me of a time I had in earlier my, my childhood where a mentor and friend of the family took me aside one day and said, you know, John, you know, when you're moving forward in life, I just, I want you to promise me that you'll never lose the wonder that you have for life.
[00:05:43] And we talk about this joy that seems to get lost through, you know, whatever societal constraints that we impose on, on our people. How have you not lost that joy? Cause it seems like something that you've been able to. To carry along with you in your life,
[00:05:57] Azzedine: You know, I think, I think by nature, I'm an optimistic person, even in this, in the face of adversity.
[00:06:05] It's not, I, to be honest, I mean, I can't say that every moment in my life has been easy, but I find humor in most things. Um, sometimes perhaps inappropriately, I, you know, some people will say, well, that's not really funny, but you know, the absurdity, the absurdity. Of how many people see themselves and, and their vision of what society should be, I think is what crushes that, that joy.
[00:06:36] Um, and so I, I have always remained positive, mostly because I think I have an ability to laugh at myself, but also at situations. I'm thinking you must be crazy. How could you be taking yourself so serious, especially when you first go out, you know, the first time I ever saw an elephant. I was amazed how quiet it was.
[00:07:01] I, I, I thought, you know, from cartoons, you know, the elephant would be stomping around and things like that. But so quiet is so amazing. And that wonder of how is this possible when you look into the eyes of, you know, wild animals and think there's, there's a lot more thought going on there. And how people could not see themselves as part of that whole same universe.
[00:07:32] So I think humor has a lot to do, a lot to do with how I remain positive because, you know, end of the day, are you going to die angry? Uh, or you gonna die with a smile on your face. So that's what keeps me going, I think.
[00:07:48] John: Yeah, it's a definitely a, a choice that we get to make, right?
[00:07:52] Azzedine: Um, yeah, it absolutely is a choice.
[00:07:53] John: Yeah. I had this moment when I, when I was a kid at a zoo one time, looking into the eyes of a gorilla and very, very distinctly having this, I thought that they're just like me. You know, we're not speaking to each other, but we were definitely communicating to one another and it was a very profound moment for me.
[00:08:12] That actually leads me into thinking about Jane Goodall, who actually wrote the foreword for your book, The Couscous Chronicles.
[00:08:18] Azzedine: She did. She did, yeah.
[00:08:20] John: And I love that. One of the things I noticed in the research was that she required you to use the term donkeys in the subtitle. Yeah. I couldn't figure out why.
[00:08:32] And so I'm, I just got to ask, you know, why was that, that connection between, between donkeys and Jane Goodall?
[00:08:37] Azzedine: Well, a couple of things I think is one, even though she's known for her work with chimpanzees, uh, over her lifetime, she's very, very concerned about the situation of donkeys in Africa. Uh, and the fact that a lot of donkeys are sold, uh, to Chinese markets for the skins and some of the, the chemicals and products that are in donkey skins. And so she's always asked me, well, what can you do about donkeys? What can you do about donkeys? But I think also she has a great sense of humor. And of course people, we all see one another through the prism of our own lives and experience.
[00:09:13] Uh, but she has a great, she has a great sense of humor. Shivamar. She said, listen, I absolutely love donkeys because they're always laughing, and I want to make sure that you talk about donkeys. Well, I think when she read the book before she agreed to do The Four Words, she saw that I talk a lot about donkeys in the book, and it's an interesting cultural connection there is that the beast of burden and all of these other names we have for donkeys and mules that people in the old city and fez the medina in Morocco rely on donkeys really for the lifeblood of how the city works no cars no cars in the old city everything comes in and out on donkeys and yet they're not treated well.
[00:10:00] They're not treated well. And even saying the word donkey in Arabic had to be followed up by the word hashek, uh, which in Moroccan dialect means, you know, uh, excuse me. So even the mention of the word, you have to say, excuse me afterwards. And I, I found that so incredible. And it, it, it really gets to that thing we're talking about, about relationships.
[00:10:22] Uh, I lived in an old, uh, palace in, in the city of Fez. And, It was broken up into various apartments and rooms, and downstairs in one of the rooms was a man who was a porter. So he had a donkey, and he worked all day, and he spent his entire life with this donkey. And I asked him one day, well, what's the donkey's name?
[00:10:45] And he couldn't understand the question. And he kept saying, but it's a donkey. I said, yeah, I know, but you spend your entire life with this. This animal doesn't she have a name and he he couldn't wrap his head around it and it it really got me to thinking. I was like, well, here's someone who literally provides this man and his young family with their daily needs.
[00:11:11] And yet he couldn't see the donkey as a perhaps a companion. And I found that interesting from a cultural perspective. So when Jane saw that, when she read that, she said, No, no, you have to put donkeys in the subtitle. So that's, that's why, that's why donkeys are there.
[00:11:31] John: I love that she argued for that as well.
[00:11:34] Azzedine: Yeah, she has a she has a she has a great sense of humor. I wrote a story. She just celebrated her 90th birthday and they asked me to write a story about her that that's out in a book for her 90th birthday. And I tell the story of how she tried to scare me. Was up in her hotel room and my wife Nadia and I went up to see her.
[00:11:55] And when I got to the room, she wasn't there. And one of our staff people said, well, there's a note for you on the desk next to this open window. And we're up on the 18th or 19th floor. I picked up the note and I said, but where's Jane? She pops out from the false balcony. She had climbed out the window. Of the 18th floor to scare me, which she did, and I, I lifted up, I was ready to bat and I thought I will literally be responsible for the death of Jane goodall Jane! I mean, you have to stop and she was 86 years old at the time.
[00:12:32] I
[00:12:32] John: hope to be 86 years old. And. To one, be in that shape where I can feel like I can climb onto a false balcony, but then also to just really want to actually mess with people and to live life that way. It's beautiful.
[00:12:44] Azzedine: No, she's, we're very, very good friends.
[00:12:47] And I, I learned so much from her, you know, and what you were saying about the zoo. We talk about zoos a lot, and there's probably, it's probably more complicated, but two schools of thought. One, zoos are horrible places. Is that's the first and perhaps only time people will have the ability to interact with a wild animal and it changes how they, they view their own relationships with, with wildlife and other species, and it can be a very positive experience.
[00:13:17] So I asked her about that a lot, a lot. Sometimes. You know, sort of a critique as well. Why would you work with zoos and that wild animals are always better in the wild? And I asked her about that. And one of the things she said was, if you are an alpha chimpanzee, your life is Is really good in the wild, if you're at the bottom of the totem pole of society in chimpanzee society, it's a brutal, brutal experience daily.
[00:13:53] So she's a, you know, you can't make these sweeping generalizations. I was talking to the staff the other day about some sort of the new things we're talking about over the year. And one of the points that I make is that, you know, Avoid zealotry and avoid zealots because it's so black and white and, you know, the world just isn't that way.
[00:14:18] And I think once, once people decide that there's only one path in life, uh, they miss so much. And it gets to what you were just asking about, you know, hope and, and remaining positive. I mean, the world is filled with wonder. If you take time, if you, if you become comfortable with silence. You know, it's a hard thing for many people to do.
[00:14:44] They're not comfortable with silence, but I learned a lot by being quiet. I'm talking a lot right now, but, um, learning to be quiet unlocks a lot of wonder in the world. I think.
[00:14:57] John: Yeah, I agree. I think that there's plenty going on in life and the more you can listen, the more you'll learn and the more you'll be able to respond to things in ways that are not just reactionary, but you know, you talk about the idea of zealotry and that's always been something that I've always looked at in my own life with not disdain, but just an understanding that it's not a very positive path forward for for anybody and you know, if as you were writing about like the your work or your experiences in the couscous chronicles, you have a very long history of working within and living within multiple cultures.
[00:15:30] And I'm curious, you know, what sort of impact did that have? On your worldview, not just personally, but professionally,
[00:15:37] Azzedine: Yeah, you know, I think many people in their lives think about a moment that sort of put them on a different path and whether or not it was planned. Uh, or written, you know, so one of the things I talk about in the couscous chronicles is the concept of mctoob.
[00:15:57] It's, it's written that you're not really in charge with a bureau of your own life and your own path. And I, you know, I've met people in my work who say, Oh, no, I knew. I knew when I was five years old that I want to work in philanthropy. And as I, I didn't even know what philanthropy was until I, you know, raising money.
[00:16:18] So I'm thinking, well, how is that, how is that possible? I don't quite believe you, but I'll, I'll say, okay, that's, that's fine. Um, but, The desire, I think, to explore has always been something that's, that's with me. Um, you know, and, and people have different ways to describe it, whether it's wanderlust or, you know, exploring or adventure.
[00:16:43] But for me, I think it's just curiosity is that if I'm not learning something, I feel I feel bored. I feel bored. I'm absolutely fascinated with languages and I speak a number of languages. I like to learn languages. I like to do. I like to focus on how people express themselves, how their worldview may change.
[00:17:07] Based on the language that they, they speak, I had a friend who told me that, you know, I speak French. We were in, uh, in France and she said, you know, your whole face changes when you speak French. I mean, you're a different person. And I thought, well, that can't be true. But I think language has a lot to do with it.
[00:17:28] uh, unlocking sort of the secrets of, of culture. And, you know, when you travel to different places, if you don't speak the language, you have a very different experience. And not to say that it's not a valid experience, but it's a very different, uh, experience. And so, you know, in the book, when I first got there to Fez, you know, I was driven by, I don't want to be seen as a tourist because there's so many, there's so many tourists, right?
[00:17:56] But then it became something else. It became not so much that you're, you're striving to be accepted, but that you can function in a society. And again, you learn so much more. Uh, the, even, even the title, uh, Couscous, I, you know, has it changed me? Absolutely. I, I always saw myself after, you know, seven years of living in Morocco while I'm, I'm Moroccan.
[00:18:23] I mean, I'm not anything different. I'm not that unusual. I would say to people, one of the reasons why I wrote the book was everyone kept saying, no, you keep saying it's not that unusual. But Yeah. Who's lived in Yemen? Who's lived in Mauritania? Who's had lunch with slaves? I mean, yeah, when I look back, I'm thinking, yeah, of course, um, I'm different because everything I thought I knew, it's not always true. It's not always true in another place.
[00:18:52] John: Yeah. The language affecting the way that you influence and relate to cultures. And then, you know, my background, you know, my father was from Costa Rica. And so I have that understanding that there's words in languages that don't exist in other languages. And even, you know, a emotive of people in Latin America are way different than they are in America.
[00:19:14] Um, one of the things I've noticed with your work at IFAW is that you don't take the view of bringing people into a space, but you. Activate the people who are already there was that something that you picked up from living abroad and living in so many different cultures and understanding that there's such a contextualization to every place that you visited, or was there something else that kind of precipitated that?
[00:19:37] Azzedine: I was a Peace Corps volunteer.
[00:19:40] That's how I first went to Morocco. And so, you know, working very closely with communities and it, it, it, it didn't matter what. I was working on, because I worked on a lot of economic development projects and early childhood education, girls education, uh, outside of the conservation and wildlife sphere.
[00:20:00] But the one thing that's with me was, if you don't begin with respect, respect, respect, respect, respect. You're not going to succeed. It doesn't matter how well planned and the strategy and the funding is all that the world is littered with development projects that were absolute failures because no one sat down and listened first.
[00:20:23] And so one of the things that I always say in the work that I do at iPhone. Is I don't come with a plan in my back pocket. I come with a mirror and I try to reflect what is it that people want first. And it's very similar, you know, families want their children to be healthy. They want to be fed. They want to be safe.
[00:20:43] They want to sleep. Well, they want to be able to go to school. They want to be healthy, all of those things. And so. If I, I feel as though if we start there, then we have a greater chance of, of success. And so, you know, over the course of the time that I worked at, I thought. I changed the brand of the organization to have the tagline of animals and people thriving together in this place that we call home, which is the planet with the ultimate goal of saving ourselves and saving the planet and moving away from this notion that, you know, people that live with wildlife are somehow less capable.
[00:21:27] Uh, and it's just extraordinarily arrogant. And I think that the history of conservation was, was difficult for many people to accept because of this issue of, uh, we know better and you destroyed your environment and you destroyed the habitat of wild animals. So we're going to, we're going to correct you.
[00:21:51] But the flip side of that is people that live with wildlife and have lived with wildlife for millennia say, but you destroyed your work. You destroyed. What we had, you know, and there's certainly all of the history, uh, prove that that's true. So I'm, I'm just a firm believer in, in showing respect to people first, and you don't have to agree with them.
[00:22:16] And sometimes it just doesn't work out. Um, but you know, in the conservation world, I think the. The science of conservation was really focused on the size of populations and that people that lived with wildlife were a problem that had to be contained. So you have a national park and the animals are locked in and the people are locked out and that's just not the way the world is going to work in the future unless we're going to accept that we're slowly managing the demise of the planet.
[00:22:49] And that's one of the things I just, I just won't accept that I won't give up. And it relates to things that we see in the younger generations with mental health issues and anxiety about climate change and all these things, but there's a lot of hope. There's a lot of hope out there. But to me, it begins with respect.
[00:23:07] If you, if you don't have respect for people, even in their simplest of basic Needs. You won't succeed. You won't succeed in the work that we do.
[00:23:17] John: Yeah. You, you talk about this idea of, you know, I won't give up. I won't give up. And I agree with you. You know, the world seems to be in a bit of a crisis around mental health and resiliency and hope and all of those things. And for me personally, when I think back and kind of ground those things in something deeper to me, those are sort of spiritual ideas that are lacking. And one of the things I've noticed with the way that you seem to move through the world and the work that you choose to do is that, you know, while, yes, it's global. Um, it's, it's also a deeply personal thing for you and you have this sort of interconnectedness that you have a understanding that, you know, there's a spiritual and ethical dimension to the work that you do. And you know, I'm just curious, you know, how is your own practice and own faith practice Influence the work that in the way that you and you do that work.
[00:24:08] Azzedine: Yeah, you know, I'm Muslim. I spent a lot of time with Sufis in in Fez, and it's the mystical Islam, if you will. I think I think the most important thing for me is having a path. That is not laid out. This notion that's healthy, I think, you know, a push and pull of what is written. Did I make a decision in my own life or was it, was it revealed to me?
[00:24:44] So there's, there's all sorts of spiritual questions that I asked myself. You know, there's a lot of meditation, meditation, meditation, Involved in, in prayer and in daily prayer and having a rhythm, some, sometimes people would ask me, well, how could you go to all of these places, uh, that some, some of which were, uh, very dangerous and my life is threatened in certain ways and in certain places and at certain times.
[00:25:14] And I like, I like, uh, I like to just read from a layman's perspective. Point of view, um, you know, quantum physics and where our energy comes from and, and things like that. So I never, I never see a beginning and an end, I guess. Hmm. Or see a beginning and an end. And so, you know, the work that we do is like, well, if it doesn't get done, uh, in, in in this life, the work has to carry on.
[00:25:42] So I, I do try to. imbue, uh, the beliefs about some of the things that we've talked about with respect for people and, uh, connectivity to, to the natural world. I have a, I have a little grandson now, he's five years old, and he asked me, he asked me the other day, uh, are, am I going to die? And I said, well, of course, of course, my body.
[00:26:07] My body will die. Um, but you know, you, you have to try to explain to a five year old too. I said, but you know, in my mind, I will always exist and I'll always be with you. Always, even if it's just a memory. So I'll never leave you. I'll never leave you.
[00:26:48] And. That gives you a great deal of comfort, you know, even some of the stories in the book. People say, well, aren't, weren't you afraid to be killed or your drive off the cliff? And I said, yeah, and I'm not afraid of dying. I just don't want, I just want it to be quick. I don't, you know, I don't want to be found at the bottom of the, of the cliff.
[00:27:11] So, yeah, I think there's a lot of spirituality and certainly with the people that we interact with, the Maasai community in Kenya, the traditional religions, you get people to open up to you. A friend who was a Maasai leader introduced me to the spiritual leader of the Maasai. the messiah who's called the libon, you know, they, they have a great sense of your energy and whether you're a good person and whether you're trying to do the right thing.
[00:27:41] Um, so I was trying to boil it down to what, what, what can we do in our work? And I, I say, well, I'll always start by doing the right thing. So then people say, but how do you know what the right thing is? And then it gets, you know, very philosophical, but, um, but I, but I believe that because how could you be criticized?
[00:28:01] We're trying to do the right thing. It can go horribly bad, but the intent, the intent is pure.
[00:28:11] John: And that's all we really have at the end of the day is our intentions. The outcome's maybe to what we were talking about earlier, or potentially out of our control, but doing the right thing and whatever that is to you is, I think, really important.
[00:28:23] I'm very struck actually, and almost a little wordless, that you brought up Sufis, because um, when I was a kid, a friend's mother introduced me to, to the writings of the Sufis and it's, uh, been something that's really impacted my own life and the reason why the infinite search is called the infinite search and the reason why my work is called heart center design and the way I move through the world is, all because of them, actually, so, um, it's very interesting that we're aligning on that and I'm like, oh, of course,
[00:28:55] Azzedine: Well, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting because, uh, in that place where I lived in Fed, there was a, a French couple who also lived within the palace walls.
[00:29:07] And. I would, because I, you know, before I learned a lot of Arabic, I spoke French, uh, already. So I was able to speak with him. His father, um, was a Syrian poet who was also a Sufi. And so we were talking about Islam and he said, well, you're probably already Muslim. And I said, well, no, no, that's not how we grew up.
[00:29:30] And he said, no, I know. And that's not how you grew up because someone told you that. But I think that you're already. You're already a Muslim, you're already on the path. And I, at the time, I thought, no, no, no, no, you know, I, I have to choose, I have to choose, right? And I think it was a struggle for a long time, whether or not you're really the master of your own religion.
[00:29:54] Path and your master of your own life. And then at certain points, you know, what could I say? I'm living with a Moroccan family and my Moroccan mother saying, no, no, no. You're absolutely not in charge. So I'm like, all right, well, what what's for dinner? You know? Yeah. So you have to kind of accept that. And I, I work in a lot of places and we talk a lot about this at IFAW.
[00:30:21] And I, I certainly talk about it a lot in the book. is how, again, how can you show respect for someone who is of a different faith? If they all lead back to a higher power or a spirituality, then you can find connectivity. One of the chiefs who is from Malawi brought them up to see the work that we do in Kenya with the Maasai.
[00:30:52] And he's a very religious man. He's Christian. After three days, he's traveling around in the Jeep. He's seeing the Maasai walking across the landscape. There's lions, there's buffalo, there's leopards, there are elephants everywhere. And he said, I, I, I can't believe this is real. This has to be the Garden of Eden.
[00:31:16] I, I, I've never seen anything like this. How, how can people not be afraid? And I said, well, this is how they've always lived. And he was so struck from a religious point of view. And of course, we're thinking, we'll present the science. We'll present the statistics. And he's like, no, no, I'm with you 100%. But only because you've shown me the Garden of Eden.
[00:31:42] And I thought, well, okay. That's that was the plan that was a little time. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, the whole time. I knew that's what would happen.
[00:31:50] John: I mean, there's a stake with a sign in the ground says Garden of Eden. We're good to go. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I noticed when doing some research on this for this episode was that you talked about creating a movement.
[00:32:03] Um, both for the youth and for people in general around the future of conservation, the future of, of, of the planet, how has that work impacted IFAW? And what, what does that look like for IFAW?
[00:32:15] Azzedine: So one of the things that I've tried to do is to find the advocates that can help create a larger movement that, that looks beyond a project or looks beyond a, you know, a programmatic endeavor.
[00:32:28] Um, It's one of the reasons why I helped fund, uh, or found, I should say, the, the, the chiefs network, the traditional network of, of, uh, conservation leaders. There's different vocabulary that they use in some places. They're, they're chiefs in some places, they're tribal leaders. Um, but the thought was, If we don't invest meaningfully in the communities or the people that live with wildlife, we're not going to succeed.
[00:33:05] And one of the reasons why I believe that is because of climate change and what was once a safe place for people and animals may not be the same safe place in future. And so there's going to be a lot of movement in and out of what previously was a safe place. Safe space. And one of the points that I make with a lot of the political leaders that I interact with is there will be civil unrest.
[00:33:36] If you don't take into consideration the future of how people interact with the environment and how they interact with wildlife and vice versa, there will be civil unrest. And you can see that all over the world. And this idea, I think, which is the sort of old thinking, is that a fundamental flaw of politicians and economists is nature must pay for itself.
[00:34:08] And if it doesn't pay for itself, it has no place in society. And I think that is just so fundamentally wrong, that if we Invest in people to create a movement that's saying we see the world as as one with nature and that we're a part of nature. That's really what the movement is about, to, to, to force societies that simply see humans as separate and apart from nature.
[00:34:40] That, that's really what it's about. And sometimes I get criticized saying, well, you know, that's far outside the scope of what conservation is. Why don't you just focus on the, the habitat and, uh, and the animals? And my answer to that is, That I attend the international forum, you know, whether it's Davos or climate cop in Dubai or wherever it may be, and I hear influential politicians, business leaders, people who represent what we call the sustainable use platform, which is Basically, nature must pay for itself, and if it doesn't, then we don't need it.
[00:35:22] And I, I scratch my head, honestly, I'm thinking, alright, so you decide that you're going to destroy everything around you, unless it has economic value to what? To your bottom line? I always think, okay, well what, then what happens? Then we have nowhere to live? But maybe that's why Elon Musk wants to go to Mars, and I wish him, I wish him well.
[00:35:49] John: Yeah. I do.
[00:35:50] Azzedine: In the near term.
[00:35:51] John: Um, I'm very frustrated with conversation around leaving our own planet just to go do it somewhere else. Again, you know, I went to school for mathematics and economics and that idea about value has always one. It's enraged me. Um, it, it, it does anger me and I have to find myself and ground myself back into the reality of like, okay, that anger is not going to do anything moving forward unless I channel it into a positive ways.
[00:36:18] And sometimes I just, I just get a little overwhelmed by it, but you,
[00:36:22] Azzedine: There are people, there are people who believe it fundamentally that you, but you could literally kill all other species on the planet and they believe that it would have no impact.
[00:36:35] John: But there's that disconnect between the fact that we are all interconnected.
[00:36:39] You know, you get back to this idea of the quantum physics, right? Where is the beginning and the end? We're all part of the same thing.
[00:36:45] Azzedine: And entangled. You know, I, I met with a donor, um, and a friend in London and, uh, out of the blue, we were just having a coffee, but out of the blue, he said, do you think we're entangled?
[00:36:58] Do you think, you know, where, and I said, well, now that you've said it, I have to think about, well, why, why did we find one another? Why do we know one another? Um, why are we aligned? So, yes. Yeah, I'll say yes.
[00:37:15] John: Previous conversation I was having with another guest, we talked about entanglement and ecologies and disablement.
[00:37:22] And, um, there's also a book, James Bridle, Ways of Being that talks about entanglement. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with that author, but he's a designer and doing some really interesting work around the fact that we're all interconnected in that way. We are truly entangled. But whether it's spiritual groups that have known this for forever or physicists who are just now getting to understand this in the past hundred years, I think that it's true, you know, it affects everyone.
[00:37:47] Azzedine: I find it absolutely fascinating. And yeah, the science, you know, science moves much slower as you, as you know. Um, And, and, you know, that, that, that affects our work too. I mean, most of what we do has the, the basis in, in science, whether science is available, but also we have to be practical and say, I can't wait for 20 years to, to prove this particular theory.
[00:38:15] We, we know enough, and that's certainly true with conservation and, and climate change. I mean, we know enough, we know enough, we know that we're in trouble. So, you know, they're interesting conversations, but the, the, the thing that I find so fascinating is that when I get attacked by, you know, the, the people who just want to sell everything in sight is they say, well, why are you talking about these things that has nothing to do with conservation?
[00:38:39] Are there enough elephants? There's too many elephants. There's not enough whales are too many whales. I always get back to this point of. Yes, but don't we exist on this planet because of all of that biodiversity? It's not, it's not like a poppin fresh, you know, planet. I mean, it took all that time, and yet We, we touched upon positivity and, and, and hope and there are so many people who, who are not hopeful.
[00:39:10] They're not hopeful. Sometimes we, we, we try to come up with, you know, arguments saying, well, don't you want your children to see animals in the wild or your grandchildren? And I've had people say to me, I absolutely do not care. If they ever see, uh, an animal and I'm only here to make money, my goal, and some of it is based in, you know, religious practice, depending on what sect they are, I'm only here to make money.
[00:39:38] That's the only goal that I have. To me, that seems like a vapid existence, but, you know,
[00:39:46] John: I would say that, but then there's the fact that we are still all in conversation in relation to one another. That, you know, I think back to that idea of Ubuntu in, in, In African traditions that I am me through you, and that's something that seems to be completely lost on Western society.
[00:40:02] Azzedine: No, I think it is. I think it is. Um, uh, it's, it's an interesting, much longer topic, I think, but why some people have a natural affinity with animals. And is it because they are self deprecating, that humanity has failed them in some way, or their personal relationships have failed them in some way, or was it just a natural affinity to animals and that's why they don't like people?
[00:40:30] And, you know, a lot of times we have people say, well, I don't want to work with people. I just want to, I just want to support the animals. To which I, Always point out animals don't eat dollars. Someone has to, you know, provide for them. Um, it's an interesting topic because I think even what we learned in the pandemic, what we've learned in the political atmosphere of many, many countries in which we work is that people see themselves as separate and apart, uh, and they, and they have given up on, on humanities.
[00:41:05] It's a very, very negative view. And I think, you know, beyond. Perhaps the personal sadness of, of their daily life is that how, how do they join that movement? How do you inspire someone to have hope? And I think some of the things that we learned in the pandemic, but we also learned it, you know, after 9 11, when the world was quiet, Is that nature will bounce back very quickly, much, much faster than I think even the science would predict, but the world needs to be quiet.
[00:41:45] And, and that's why, you know, I was saying earlier about even in your daily life, facing adversity and things like that, if you can, if you can become comfortable with, with a quiet. You may find hope. You may find hope for the future.
[00:42:00] John: I think back to this idea of, you know, if we need more space and need more quiet, the, those practices and those spiritual practices are, you know, the stepping stones to get to a world, you know, a global world where there is more space to have those kind of conversations.
[00:42:15] Um, but again, it kind of starts back on the personal side of things where you're taking ownership of your own life and saying, okay, at this time, I'm going to stop. I'm going to make sure that having awareness and intention of the things around me. And yeah, it's just been such an important part of my life, so
[00:42:33] Azzedine: No, no, I think it's critically important. I was, I was speaking to some colleagues who were still working for the Peace Corps. And they told me that they're having a very difficult time in recruiting new volunteers because there is so much anxiety about the future. And you, you know, I think the Peace Corps is really, um, One of the foundations is, is really to inspire people to take action, and if they've lost the ability to inspire themselves, you know, it's sort of a, a very negative indication of what's to come, and That's why, you know, one of the things that Jane Goodall asked me to do was to join that Council of Hope and really the message is very, very simple, um, is that there, there is hope, there is hope and you have to find connections to invite people in to a, to a circle of hope or whatever it is that we, we call it, um, because the negativity Dialogue these days is so pervasive, no one, no one knows what's true or what isn't true anymore.
[00:43:48] And I think a lot of people, you know, even in my own family, I mean, they retreat and they don't want to listen to the news. They don't want to watch the news. They, they say, well, you have to, you have to find, I mean, there's, there's a lot of good news out there, but you know, if it bleeds, it leads in the video. So it's a fight. It's a fight. You have to keep going on.
[00:44:08] John: There's a David Byrne's Reasons to Be Cheerful for anyone who's listening that, um, I like to read because it's definitely the exact opposite of any sort of major news media source, but really does cover a lot of positive things that are happening in the world.
[00:44:21] You know, one of the things I noticed is you phrase something about bureaucracies and how that they you. Lean on process over people and it was, it, it really struck me and stopped me dead in my tracks when I was reading that and I almost shed a tear because it was just something that really resonated with me, you know, you and I'm assuming Jane to have this ability to sort of cut through noise and cut through the things that everyone else says, Oh, we have to build it in such and such way. And how do you, how do you find that? How do you work through that sort of solution oriented way and way finding when there's so many people around you who are so much more about, Oh, we're going to have a request for proposal to figure out how to do it.
[00:45:03] Azzedine: Yeah. You know, I really detest bureaucracy. I really do. I really do. Um, and Jane and I talk a lot about this. It's, it's what I constantly talk about at IFAW. And it's a natural process that bureaucracy builds up to protect the weak and to protect the cowards. And I'm very open when I say these things, even to my own staff, it assumes the worst in people.
[00:45:35] It assumes that you're a thief. It assumes that you're going to steal. It assumes that, uh, the project or the work will fail. And so you need to protect yourself. What I, what I learned, and I tell this story, and I talk a lot about bureaucracy in the Couscous Chronicles, because I was staggered by the cowardice Of people who wouldn't take action, even in the face of death for others, that they were going to follow the process.
[00:46:09] And I, I just thought that was so despicable and not to say that you don't need rules. Of course, you know, there has to be rules and, you know, Civilization is a very thin veneer. I think I also think, um, but I, you know, I, and I just said this the other day to, to the staff is always do the right thing first, figure out the paperwork later.
[00:46:35] And, you know, I, I make a joke out of it and I laugh, I'm willing to go down with the ship by doing the right thing first. And you want to take me to court or you want to, uh, criticize me that I helped someone, uh, and I didn't follow the process. I'm really happy to be brought to trial on, on things like that.
[00:46:55] So I really don't, I really don't, you know, I think there's so much driven by fear and I've had people say to me, no, no, no, following the process is more important than the outcome. I don't pretend that I understand that type of thinking, like why, what, what would drive you? That you've got the paperwork done on time.
[00:47:20] Now, in our work, we have sort of people who will go, go rogue. You know, they say, I want to do this project and I'm not going to fill out the paperwork. And I said, well, listen, with funding, you know, guess what? Guess what? You have to fill out, you know, page eight and line 29 dash eight. That's my favorite one.
[00:47:42] The line 29 dash eight, just fill it out, but don't wait to do the right thing. Don't wait to do the right thing. And, you know, we are blessed at IFAW to have supporters who, who believe in that mission. Uh, so I take great, I take great encouragement and strength from the people that, that support us. Even, even with the, the, the war in Ukraine, uh, you know, I had discussions with our own staff and rescue and I said, listen, I have a lot of experience in evacuating people from war zones.
[00:48:14] Uh, because I, I had to do it a number of times in Yemen and other places. And the thought that the bureaucrat is going to get three bids for the cheapest airline to remove people in a war zone, instead of just saying, in this case, there was a military commander who said, I'll have the people out within 24 hours.
[00:48:37] You give me the order now, I'll have them out in 24 hours. And the response was, okay, all right, well, let's take that under consideration and let's get the three bits. And honestly, I was thinking to myself, if people knew, if people on the street knew that this is the type of conversation that takes place.
[00:48:57] for American citizens being evacuated. You can understand why some people, you know, dislike the government, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it, it has a huge impact in, in, in my experiences in, in life, in all of these places where I lived. The bureaucracy often was associated with corruption and petty corruption and, you know, and, and you just realize that so much of what is put in place is based on the assumption that people do the wrong thing, not the right thing.
[00:49:27] I've always taken from a management point of view, I've always taken the, the view that I would rather manage a problem in real time as opposed to putting in bureaucracy to prevent it from happening in the first place. Not everyone likes that. You know, you have, you've got the auditors and the finance people, they like the, they like the rules.
[00:49:49] For me, it gets back to respect too, is that sometimes just doing the right thing is just respectful. It's respectful. And I think that's what I believe in personally. And it's what I try to imbue to how we manage IFAW and conservation and the relationships we have with people. It's, it really is driven by respect and a belief that.
[00:50:12] I will find good people. I will find good people. And a lot of times, a lot of times I'm told, oh, you don't know how to work with this culture. You don't know how to work with that. And I was told once, you want to work in the Middle East, you must crush people, crush them. And I said, well, I'm not going to crush anyone.
[00:50:30] I'm going to find good people. good people. I might fire those bad people, but I'll find good people. And so even sometimes people within their own culture, I think, I think there has to be a reawakening and it's not, it's not a learning, but it's a reawakening of perhaps knowledge that has been lost.
[00:50:55] John: Yeah. The, to my teachings and knowledge, there's the idea of loosening the ties that bind It's one of the first chapters in one of the very first Sufi books I ever read. And it was something that I, I had to kind of take a step back and go, Oh, I've been cultured into a certain way of thinking that has to get reframed and has keep moving forward as a species and as a society and as a Entangled planet.
[00:51:21] I think that that's another conversation that I think you're to what you're talking about. That is a bigger conversation that I think people either don't want to wrap their heads around or it's too big to even kind of consider on a day to day level for them without the practice behind it.
[00:51:35] Azzedine: I think it takes time. It takes time. You know, again, it gets back to the patients, you know, in, um, in Africa, you know, They spend a lot of time there, and we talk about, you know, meeting under the tree. Well, it's not a euphemism. You literally meet under the tree. Now, that meeting could take three, three days of sitting under the tree.
[00:51:54] So, you have to be patient. You have to be patient. And I asked a woman that we work with, uh, who's a Maasai woman, and she's an elder, and I asked her one day, how has the work at IFAW changed Your daily life in any, in any way. And she said, Oh, thank you. Thank you. And she was, she was very generous in her generosity of saying, thank you.
[00:52:18] But I, I said, no, but I, I, I want the real answer. I want the real answer. And she said, you know, the fact that you're even asking me means that I could step out from under the shadow of this tree for the first time in my life. And I'm thinking, you know, when we talk about the movement, It's not about the elements of the project.
[00:52:43] It's about the fundamental shift. These women for the first time in millennia able to own cattle. Only men were allowed to own cattle. So it wasn't the six cattle that they bought. It was the fundamental shift in how they saw themselves. And ownership and how their brothers and fathers and mothers and sisters saw them.
[00:53:10] So is that a conservation project? No, but she said to me in the end, she said, because of what you've said to me, I'm going to help you to protect those elephants. And I thought, yeah, so it wasn't, you know, It wasn't that they got a new Toyota Land Cruiser. It was that a movement has been awoken, that there's a, that there's a value in their knowledge.
[00:53:40] So to me, that's very motivating and it's very inspirational. And it's, it's one of the reasons why I spent time going out and visiting. You know, the people with whom we work, as opposed to, you know, the stuffed shirts that reads the report.
[00:53:56] John: Oh my gosh.
[00:53:57] Azzedine: I'll probably, I'll probably be in trouble now.
[00:54:01] John: You know, that movement, you know, awakening that movement, it's, there's something to that. And for me, I get back to that idea around value again, and then reframing it around the heart and not around the dollar and not around this disassociation of value between human beings who are coming into conflict with one another over scarce resources, but really understanding that the value that we create is between one another and it's a bond and it's a bind and it's only through that heart that we'll ever find a way to move forward in a way that's sustainable, not just for people, but for species and the planet as a whole.
[00:54:37] Azzedine: No, I think, you know, that without that, without that, I, I just don't think we're going to succeed.
[00:54:43] John: You know, as we're wrapping up, I'm curious. One, thank you for your time in this conversation, because it's just, it's been really enjoyable, but I get to this idea of what does the world in the future look like? Where there's no need for IFAW, where the work has been done and there's something else to go do after that.
[00:55:03] Azzedine: You know, one of the things we used to say at Peace Corps was to work yourself out of a job. Sure. And, uh, it's a great, it's a great question. It's a, it's something that I bring up at IFAW and I find, I find sometimes that the passion is so intense.
[00:55:19] For people to is that they don't see that next stage. They don't see that they've passed on knowledge that they want to just continue to do to do the project. I think, you know, as an organization, it will evolve. It has evolved since I taken over CEO that notion that it's people and animals thriving together.
[00:55:47] So from an organizational. Point of view. I'm constantly striving with the ultimate goal to save the planet, to save the planet. And so I think we are inserting ourselves into conversations that haven't been taking place on an international stage. It's like, well, you stay over there because you work with animals.
[00:56:09] We're talking about climate change. you know, the soil, the air, the water, all of those things that are so critical to our own survival. It will be a challenge, and it will be a challenge for the people who have grown up with IFAW, uh, and for the next, A generation. So I, you know, if we can be, if we can be a beacon of hope and prove that saving, saving an elephant is saving ourselves and saving a whale is saving ourselves, we will succeed in, in having a healthy planet.
[00:56:40] So that, that to me is the vision, um, probably another 50 years. I'm not sure. I'll, I'll be entangled somewhere in the universe.
[00:56:51] John: Definitely will be. And I think that's a beautiful vision and something that we should hold to and take action to today, because that's the only way that we get there.
[00:57:00] Azzedine: Yeah, I just leave with the message that we talked is that don't give up on yourself and don't give up on the planet. There is hope, and there's lots of evidence to back up what I'm saying about hope.
[00:57:12] John: Azzedine, I really do appreciate this conversation and I look forward to sharing it with the audience.
[00:57:17] Azzedine: Thank you so much. Thank you.